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Post by Sunstar on Jan 2, 2014 16:59:00 GMT -5
Hello guys! I hope you had a merry Christmas. I wish you a happy new year! Good luck, health, love and light to everyone! Storm, this is an interesting and fascinating topic. But I am rather sceptical about such claims. It's not so much about evidence for or against such theories. The interest in occultism, Pagan rituals etc. within some circles of SS is evident, of course. But I just don't like the idea of explaining Hitler's success with occult forces, supernatural powers or special abilities like hypnosis. IMHO that's always kind of problematic. By saying that Hitler could hypnotize or bewitch people, or that he was in contact with occult forces, evil spirits or whatever, we take away the responsibility for the terrible historical events from the human being Adolf Hitler - and instead we make those "occult forces" accountable for it. We also take away the responsibility from all the people who believed, followed and worked with Hitler - because they were bewitched or hypnotized and therefore helpless and powerless. This is like taking away the responsibility from ourselves, our own thoughts, feelings, deeds and decisions and putting it to something that we cannot see, touch, understand nor control. In this concept the person Hitler also rises from a politician and a simple human being to a black magician - or maybe a vessel for supernatural spirits, or the devil himself or the antichrist ... To me this kind of thinking seems as an attempt to explain the terrible horrors of history that are so unexplainable to us. But this explanation is a too simple one, and it is too comfortable. There are enough rational reasons and factors to explain the success of Hitler and Nationalsocialism. I don't think that we need black magic or hypnosis here. But I guess, to many people in the world it is easier to believe in magic and other unexplainable stuff, than to accept that Hitler was an ordinary man, just a politician of his time, who was capable of doing such horrible things. It is much more frightening to accept that the evil in the world is not done by "evil forces", but by human beings like you and me. Just imagine that everyone of us - hypothetically - has the capability to be a Hitler. And everyone of us has the capability to hail and follow someone like Hitler. Imagine, it can happen anywhere and anytime again - because you and me are doing it, without any influence of occult forces or black magic. I think that's much harder to bear. And especially for those of us, who were on the Nazi side in their PLs, it is an important task to accept this horrible side of human capability and comprehend the reasons and circumstances for this kind of human behaviour. When thinking of Hitler's personality and outward appearance - I don't know, maybe it's just me - but I could never understand what was so fascinating about him. His speeches are boring to me, repetitions of emotionally boosted phrases, while his way of talking, his manner is annoying. Today he looks like a clown. It's hard to take him serious while looking at and listening to him. And he did not look charismatic, and he did not look at all like the ideal Aryan who he was propagandising. But people in general like to have their heroes. They like to adore and idolise them. Once they have found someone, they ignore their faults. Love can make you blind. And especially in a political and economical crisis, like in the 30s, there is a need for heroes. There are also many theories that Hitler had a mental illness. Of course, that's hard to prove now. At least, now there is some evidence that he was taking drugs like amphetamines. The side effects would explain the strange behaviour, the mental and physical disorders which others observed in him. This is much more plausible to me. Mit lieben Grüßen Sunstar
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Post by Demi on Jan 2, 2014 17:20:18 GMT -5
Hitler is absolutely repelling to me. His looks, and voice and all. Yes, it's the darkness inside of us that is the most dangerous thing. Good and evil is inside everyone.
All the best, Demi
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Post by gumby on Jan 2, 2014 21:59:29 GMT -5
Many aspects of what we term the "occult" were farily deeply ingrained in German society at this time, so it would not be surprising to find that Hitler may have been influenced by such beliefs. It is said that he was interested in numberology and astrology especially. However, I don't feel that these interests were a major driving force in his role as the führer. He believed in destiny, in that he proclaimed that Germans were destined to become the master race. He certainly did appear to be a man possessed, his oratory full of anger and strong conviction, oftentimes frightening yet able to drive an entire nation to action. Whereas I see some imfluences of occult there, I don't think that this was the major factor which drove Hitler towards his quest, rather it was more of the man's passion, and his brutal nature. Actually Hitler may have made an excellent Al Capone if he'd been born in those circumstances. He was a Ceasar in every regard. But his power was in his leadership, and ability to eliminate his foes swiftly, and mind control. But I don't think the mind control was through occult mechanisms, if indeed such a thing exists. It was the power of him.
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Post by Storm on Jan 3, 2014 14:31:49 GMT -5
I agree with Sunstar that we cannot use alleged occultism to try in any way to negate responsibility, that I accept. However, there is very strong evidence that Hitler was actually trained in hypnotic techniques. And Gumby is correct that many aspects of what we term occultism were deeply ingrained in German society at the time. Still are, judging by some of the Germans I know! It amazes me that such educated and usually logical people, (out of those I personally know), often embrace, quite unquestioningly, ideas that would be considered relatively "out there" by British counterparts. It's really interesting. Certainly the embracing of spiritual ideas, readings and other such "alternative" therapies and techniques seems more widespread in some quarters in Germany than over in the UK.
I would also argue that duress often played a significant part in why so many ordinary Germans kept quiet and complied with the regime, far moreso than hocus pocus in the majority of cases! But Hitler himself was being used and manipulated by those, (people like Rosenberg and others), who did subscribe to occult beliefs. And he held them himself. This coupled with his probable mental illness, and with the overall mood among Germans and the desire to vindicate the nation and change the fortunes of the German population was a truly lethal cocktail.
I have to confess, from my perspective as someone studying human behaviour, I find simple human factors a lot easier to deal with than the idea of other forces interfering. After all, the human being is perhaps the most savage "animal" on the face of the earth, and at least if it is all down to us then we have the power to transform evil. I prefer having power and free will than potentially losing it to possible other factors, (just thinking about the growth in popularity of ideas involving alleged Archon beings). Now if they really do exist that's not a nice thought. Much better if we are indeed responsible for everything, rather than having meddling forces we have little hope of standing up against interfering. I would rather place my hope in psychology and the good side of humanity than "magic".
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Post by Demi on Jan 3, 2014 14:46:29 GMT -5
Storm can you give some example of what kind of occult things the Germans you know are into? Personally I know lots of people into astrology and spirituality etc., but I see nothing creepy about that. There are just things of a subtler nature which the majority consider being "out there". Such as past lives, for example. ;D The human being is probably the most complicated creature to figure out, at least in my experience. Demons and angels, at least it's clear about them. "Since the middle ages, the Germans are fighting with the Devil within them in the most elevated aspects of their culture. In our greatest epic work the main character is a man who is on the borderline between humanity and medieval thought, a man of God who chooses to sell his soul to the Devil to gain worldly powers" - Thomas Mann, speech in the Library of Congress, 1945 All the best, Demi
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Post by Storm on Jan 3, 2014 14:53:32 GMT -5
Indeed so, Demi! Ah, Thomas Mann. One of Heydrich's least favourite people, lol. Mann was absolutely right of course!
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Post by Storm on Jan 3, 2014 15:04:52 GMT -5
Lol, yes! I know a number who are devotees of Tibetan pulsing, (which is very interesting actually, and which does seem to work). The ones I was thinking of in particular are professionals, one of whom is in engineering, who believe wholeheartedly that a rather peculiar, sadly, morbidly obese woman is an alien goddess and that her weight problem is due to having crammed thousands of strands of DNA into her body as she ascended.. Hmmmm. I just shrug it off. People are free to believe what they wish, but it strikes me as interesting that a couple of these people who see this lady as a guru demand scientific precision in their professional lives, yet are completely the opposite privately. This woman has repeatedly made claims about alien landings which have not come true, yet her devotees believe everything she says and dismiss any errors as being due to changing timelines. It's an interesting paradox. Even more interesting was the fact that these contacts of mine, even with their unconventional beliefs, would not countenance the idea I was a reincarnated Nazi, even though they accept reincarnated Nazis probably do exist. Maybe that's a good sign! Maybe the lady is indeed an alien goddess and I am not a reincarnated Nazi? That would be nice! ;D
I also have a contact over here who ran workshops in Germany getting people to integrate their 'ET selves'. she makes far more money in Germany and on the continent than she does over here! She has clients from all walks of life, and many in Bavaria.
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Post by Demi on Jan 3, 2014 15:23:30 GMT -5
And to comment on Gumby's post, historians generally explain the third Reich as a combination of "deviation of the leader and deviation within society" which could allow for such a leader. This resonates with Indian spiritual master Maharishi's comments that "a leader is the reflection of the collective consciousness of the nation" to such an extent that "the people of a nation are responsible for the kind of leader they get" understood as the sum of the vibrational level of their thoughts, whether positive/negative, will produce a leader who "due to a mass influence of the nation's consciousness, is not able to act differently on his own but is merely a reflection of the nation's thoughts." Once he get's the president's seat, he is controlled by the vibration of the masses. If the majority people are living in a way that violates natural law (righteousness on all levels) the character of their leader will reflect that. According to Maharishi, society is a wholeness, the different parts affecting each other organically, and the head of state is inseparably linked and completely under its influence. This implies if someone else came into office (provided it was at all possible due to the thoughts of society!) he would end up acting similarly in this role, even against his will. Western historians and philosophers who has studied the peculiarities of German society, also often stress the connection between a leader and the people as both being responsible. Storm - ;D Could it be that the "makes more money" is a key aspect here? I've heard that Germans are practical people, maybe a bit naive? It happens that the Germans I know personally seem to be less spacey than others of the spiritual breed. Bavaria, btw, I love this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq5VA0VaqrEAll the best, Demi
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Post by Storm on Jan 3, 2014 15:52:39 GMT -5
I think the German collective psyche is still hurting a lot, understandably, and that pains me greatly. When people are hurt, they seek pain relief and turn to many things for comfort and answers. I know, I have sought lots of "out there" opinions on my situation. Although I am finding that my own pain relief is actually within me and all around me in my daily life and environment nowadays. Maybe that is the effect of healing. I am getting on far better without seeking "spiritual" guidance, from various practitioners and theorists now. I must learn to trust my own counsel more. And this has been an important lesson for me on this journey. Please forgive me, Gumby, I did not mean to hijack your thread. May continue the debate on Hitler on my thread. Please, not yodeling! XD
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Post by gumby on Jan 4, 2014 16:05:59 GMT -5
Oh that is okay Storm, I have been enjoying reading what you Sunstar and Demi have posted about this. I think that the reason why the occult was so strongly ingrained in parts of Germany then and now, is because many of the aspects of the Nature religions ( Paganism ) still remain, especially in rural areas. Divination, numberology, and astrology are really remnants of the Pagan religions which were prevalent in ancient times. There was also ancestor worship. All these things played a major role in the Germanic tribal religions. These undercurrents may well have influened Adolf Hitler, call it superstition or whatever, it still has its sway on the people.
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 5, 2014 19:47:39 GMT -5
Gumby, I'm sorry for again writing so much into your thread - but I totally disagree here!!! Quote: "And Gumby is correct that many aspects of what we term occultism were deeply ingrained in German society at the time. Still are, judging by some of the Germans I know! It amazes me that such educated and usually logical people, (out of those I personally know), often embrace, quite unquestioningly, ideas that would be considered relatively "out there" by British counterparts. It's really interesting. Certainly the embracing of spiritual ideas, readings and other such "alternative" therapies and techniques seems more widespread in some quarters in Germany than over in the UK."
Quote: "I think that the reason why the occult was so strongly ingrained in parts of Germany then and now, is because many of the aspects of the Nature religions ( Paganism ) still remain, especially in rural areas." Oh my God! Occult stuff is strongly ingrained in German society?! Even today??? LMAO Where??? Please tell me where! I'd like to see it with my own eyes, because I have never seen anything like that. In rural areas? Sorry, guys - no! In rural areas, and especially those rural areas in South Germany/Bavaria, you may find more conservative people and families, that is more Christian tradition and Christian belief, more stuff like folklore, traditional food and clothes, and maybe more of the old traditional values, which are mostly lost today. That may also result in more scepticism towards foreigners and multiculturalism, globalization etc. But occultism and paganism - no! From my own experience I can tell you, that it is hard to find someone who you can talk to face to face about spirituality or even Christian religion. You have really to look out for these people in everyday life. Looking at the whole German society, I would rather accuse many Germans of being atheists and non-believers, compared to immigrants from traditional Christian countries like Poland, Italy or Greece. I also cannot tell that Germans are much into astrology or numerology or divination. Huh? Where did you find that? That stuff is rather seen as a funny game you can do on new year's eve. But it is nothing serious. The Germans are also not so much superstitious. People from Italy, Poland, Turkey, Greece, who live here and who I know, are in many cases more religious and more superstitious than the Germans. Storm, I'm sorry, I don't know what kind of Germany you are talking about, but it is definitely not the one I live in. ;D You seem to have met some very "special" people with very "special and alternative" beliefs. Of course, some nutcases will exist in any Western society nowadays. But what you describe is far, far away from the mentality of the majority of people in Germany. It is very interesting, but I, as a German, would rather expect such alien goddess stuff over in the US or maybe in the UK, than in Germany. In fact, my impression has always been that almost any kind of esoteric stuff or alternative spiritual belief, be it useful or nonsense, be it reincarnation, angels, healing, channelling, witches, pagan religion, conspiracy theories, aliens, secret societies or whatever, comes over to us from the English-speaking world! When you go to a book store in Germany and look through the shelves with esoteric literature - where are the German-speaking authors? There are only a few. The majority of books are translations from English. When I search on the Internet for any conspiracy theory or esoteric/spiritual stuff, I will always google as well with English terms, or sometimes only with English terms, because there will be far more and better results in English than in German. And by the way, the author of the book, you've mentioned, who is that anyway? Does he have any scientific background in German history? Correct me, if I'm wrong, but he seems to be an expert of occultism, not an expert of the biography of Hitler or the history of the Third Reich or German society. Someone like that will see alleged connections to occultism wherever he wishes to see. If Germans are so much into occultism, than why didn't a German historian write a book like that long before? Sorry, but these kind of theories and these kind of "researchers" are very questionable to me. Well, the Germans who I know, work with and talk to every day are mostly practical, reasonable and down to earth. Though there are some atheists in German society, as mentioned above, still many Germans deep down in their hearts believe in God. Some people also accept some spiritual ideas like reincarnation or guardian angels in their personal beliefs. But only very few people I know are truly interested in spirituality or religion. The catholic church and clergy is very often and openly criticized in media and society. This way Christian religion and tradition is unfortunately often discredited along with it in Germany. But there is more interest in Asian belief systems and spiritual practices instead (Buddhism, Meditation, Yoga...) which are commonly approved. There is also much officially accepted alternative medicine and therapies in Germany, because some of them originated in German-speaking countries and have a long tradition here. And also many Asian alternative therapies are widely known and generally accepted. I agree on that. But this is mostly a health issue and not a spiritual one. And there is no spooky stuff about that at all. There are many people interested in alternative diet as well. Another maybe a bit spooky thing you might observe in Germany are the so called Gothics, mostly young people dressed in black. Some of them are interested in stuff like Wicca, Pagan rituals, white magic etc. But they are nice people, and for most of them it's only about music, art, fashion, philosophy, expression of thoughts and emotions. I have been a bit into that myself when I was younger ;D But they seem to disappear slowly now. As far as I know, German society has changed a lot from the days of Hitler until today. Of course in those time there was some interest in the "Germanic roots". I think you are talking about that, when you talk about occultism in the Third Reich. There was the Völkisch movement, later came Himmler, Wewelsburg, there were attempts to create a new religion. But this was not the majority of German society! In fact there was much more Christian belief and traditional values in the common German population before the war, than there are today. The Nazis misused many of these good old traditional values and virtues, of course. Then, in the 60's a revolution of society took place in Germany. The 68er movement in Germany had a great impact. You can see the results today. I don't want to discuss this much here, as I am not an expert on this myself, but it is very important to know about the influence of the 68er's and the misuse of traditional German values by the Nazis, if you want to understand ANYTHING about the German society today, as well as our political spectrum. Well, of course there will always be some nutcases, sects, gurus and special groups everywhere. And I don't want to convince anyone of anything here, as everyone will perceive the world around him in his own way. We pay more attention to things we wish to see or things that are interesting to us. And - on a subconscious level - we attract those things and people that are part of ourselves. With best regards, Sunstar
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 5, 2014 19:53:21 GMT -5
I think the German collective psyche is still hurting a lot, understandably, and that pains me greatly. When people are hurt, they seek pain relief and turn to many things for comfort and answers. Yes, there is still a great amount of guilt, consciously or subconsciously, in the minds of German people (but not so much in the younger generations). You can see reactions to it very much in the politics and political statements today and in the past decades. You can also see it sometimes in the behaviour and statements of people in everyday life. Of course, this is not called guilt, but something like historical consciousness or historical responsibility… What Germans fear the most, is being called a Nazi. That hurts the most. To compare someone's attitude to Nazi attitude is the most effective method to discredit someone in public. But I don't think that people in Germany seek comfort in alternative spiritual beliefs because of their guilt about WW2. I would say that they turn to different kinds of alternative beliefs because traditional religion/the church is so much criticized and considered as antiquated. And because many of the traditional values are lost today. But many people don't like to be atheists, they want to believe in something. And they need something like a philosophy and a moral compass. Tradition, education and the state can hardly provide this anymore. I don't think that everything going on in Germany is about WW2
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 5, 2014 20:22:46 GMT -5
I've heard that Germans are practical people, maybe a bit naive? In my opinion, many people in Germany are politically naive, that's still their great fault. We were taught much about the propaganda of the Third Reich. But today most Germans believe every word from the newspapers, TV and the mouth of politicians. People let themselves be fooled and influenced by the mainstream media too easily. And they keep quiet. They don't speak up, even if they disagree. They don't go out on the street and don't take part in demonstrations for example. They go to work instead. They fulfil their duties. On the one hand, that is a good attitude. Having a proper profession and going to work regularly, I would call the most important thing in German society. Not so much education, but a proper profession. People don't like to change their job or profession at all. And if the political leaders create harder conditions, so that people have to work more for the same money, and if politicians tell them to work harder for the well-being of the state, people will go and work harder. So on the other hand - same old story, you see? People in Poland are far more critical of their politicians and their political agendas. And they are not so much concerned about economy, while the Germans - that is the working population - are always concerned about the wealth and well-being of the state. Germans believe and understand that their personal happiness and wealth depends to a great degree on taxes, functioning social systems, employment, a successful economy and industry. After two lost World Wars the Germans maybe would not go to war for that anymore. But they still go to work for that everyday! Hey, if you like Bavarian songs, try this epic piece of trash from the 90's ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=r53Ao-Y5_2Q
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Post by gumby on Jan 5, 2014 21:52:55 GMT -5
Yes I do believe Sunstar that you are correct in your description of German culture today. Germans do tend to be very pragmatic people, hard working and astute in manner. The German immigrants to the United States in the 19th century were also noted to have this trait, and they maintain this to this day. When I reflect back on my PL memories as Katie I actually find myself agreeing absolutely with what you are saying, I see my PL parents and grandparents as realists, hard working, and raised in the conservatism of the Church. On the other hand, It is obvious that Paganism has crept into the Christian traditions at many places, the veneration of the Virgin Mother( akin to the Earth Mother goddess ), veneration of saints( akin to a veneration of many gods), the Christmas celebrations( again Pagan in origin), belief in miracles. Paganism was once strong as a driving force and folklore probably functions as a continuance of Paganism to some degree, as you have to take into account that the Germanic tribes were adherants to the old tribal religions for thousands of years prior to being forced into Christianity. If you go back and examine those old tribal religions, you will find that the moon and sun and planets were worshipped, and divination took place via the priestess, they read signs via human bones,they offered potions, they worshipped and revered their ancestors. It may not be obvious, but I believe that many of these Pagan beliefs continue today, many people are somewhat superstitous in one way or another, even in Germany. Even when one seeks favor from a patron saint, that is a parallel facet of Paganism. Anyway, I wonder how many Germans consult their daily horoscopes? I wonder if fortune tellers are in any demand? I think that that is just a part of human nature to seek a supranatural understanding and guidence to human affairs. It is possible that Hitler did likewise ref: www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htmIt is unfortunate that the term "occult" has become tainted and equated with Satanism. I don't feel that this is the work of the devil, rather it is simple traditions and beliefs which were handed down for thousands of years in Germany, and these have their originis in the ancient tribal religions. Germany is steeped in history, an ancient world where beliefs and ideals have survived for millenia. St. Martin is the reveared saint of the harvest and wine, which is of course so important to the Rhineland and the harvest celebrations. Martin’s saint’s day replaced the pagan feast day. Oftentimes we don't realize to what extent our modern world has been influenced by the past. And yes it is true that many people seek the wisdom of the past as delineated in the Bible and other ancient documents. Some even look further afield to the ancient beliefs of the Pagans. Anyway, as far as Hitler being influenced by "occultism' or Paganism, the link is far from proven and remains speculation. Some claim that he had a personal astrologer but this has not been verified. I think that he may have been influenced to a certain degree, even to the point that he felt that his mission was decreed by devine providence. However, he seems to have interpreted scripture to serve his own ends, in order to justify his actions. And of course we know the outcome of this.
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Post by Demi on Jan 6, 2014 16:35:53 GMT -5
Pagan religions were the original religions of the European continent for thousands of years, so it's no wonder if some of these traditions still are found in society in one form or another, but as Sunstar says, I don't think they are more prevalent in Germany than anywhere else. The Polish are quite a bit more religious (bordering on fanaticism in some circles) including a certain hostility towards "alternative" beliefs which I do not personally like. I do not like how the Church took over the Pagan holidays and traditions and made it their own while trying to break down Pagan culture. Recently the indigenous traditions are seeing a comeback in the arts - including the notorious "My Slowianie" song ;D. While "too many boobs" in the video, I do really like the folklore feeling of the song itself!
All the best, Demi
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