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Post by Storm on Jan 6, 2014 17:44:18 GMT -5
Sunstar, I was very surprised to find such seemingly out of character beliefs prevalent among some of the German people I met via a contact who used to live in the UK. Very surprised! I would be far more inclined to hold with your perception of modern Germans. However, I think "alternative" and spiritual interests, to use the term as in the generic, is growing everywhere in the west, and this manifests in all kinds of beliefs I guess. People believe what they want to believe. Psychology is key, and yes, the desire to believe something in place of traditional religion, now it is no longer so popular, is a factor. Yes, there will be "eccentrics" everywhere. ;D Many people would think those of us who believe we were possibly Nazis in our past lives fell into that category also, lol. I expect area has something to do with it too. I was in Berlin for a lot of the time. I imagine it does not really reflect the wider Germany any more than London reflects the entire UK! I myself have re-evaluated a lot of what I formerly considered. I think considering all possibilities is healthy, but buying in too much to any given theory without proof can indeed be foolhardy, especially when other perhaps more down to earth and human factors can be responsible. I remain open-minded about many aspects of my own journey, and indeed, about many aspects of what allegedly happened behind the scenes in the SS. But it is a useful exercise to throw out completely outlandish and unrealistic ideas, with no evidence, in order to not fall into the trap of clutching at straws, such as that particular group I encountered in Germany seem to be doing. I agree with you that younger people are less influenced by WW2 history in Germany. It is the same here. Of course, as time moves on, people will dwell on this era less and less. I did pick up that some older Germans feel a little concerned that maybe the lessons of the past are more lost to younger people, but that is natural in a way, after all it is a long time ago. I also think that younger people often have a greater awareness of the need to be tolerant, because they were raised in a more politically correct environment, so maybe they do not need to dwell on the past as much as those who maybe experienced the aftermath of the Nazi era. Of course, the far right is growing in Germany, as it is over here and in France, Austria, Norway, Greece and other countries. If unemployment increases, this will only get worse. But in the main I think most Europeans are happy in a more tolerant society, so here's hoping the far right do not grow too large across the EU. I think it is interesting that you say Germans tend to believe what their politicians say. that is the opposite to in Britain, where no one believes anything a politician says! ;D I did wonder how comes the German electorate backed Merkel again, inspite of the Greek bailout and other Eurozone bailout policies, which seem to rattle my most sensible and sane German friend. He despises paying 40% tax knowing the Greeks are getting a bailout that they could have avoided with decent and fair taxation. But I think he still may have voted for Merkel. Whereas over here many are not voting at all. Is voter apathy a growing problem in modern Germany, as it is here? I think awareness of nature and the environment is possibly more prevalent in some places on the continent than in the UK. But Scandinavia seems the most environmentally aware. This, in my view, more appropriately reflects the Norse desire to work in harmony with nature, rather than any outlandish practice Himmler and Willigut probably partook of. But Gumby is correct that it is a shame the term occult has come to mean spooky nonsense and black magic. When I use the word I mean it within its definition, and it just means hidden. Which only backs up the fact many ordinary Germans back in the Nazi era were not aware of the SS practices behind the scenes. So it is not inaccurate to use the term occult practices when speaking about the Thule and Vril societies in particular. Thank you, Gumby, for your indulgence.
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 6, 2014 19:48:46 GMT -5
What? Possible past life Nazis are eccentrics? ;D No way! Hahaha! So it is not inaccurate to use the term occult practices when speaking about the Thule and Vril societies in particular. Yes, when speaking about societies like that or Himmler's hocus pocus. But not, when talking about the ordinary German society in the Third Reich or even the German society today.
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Post by gumby on Jan 6, 2014 22:03:26 GMT -5
No I never meant it that way, Sunstar. I do not believe that the occult as the term has been implied today is mainstream in German society. I know that this does not apply to Germany as a whole, and I understand your adversion to that. As I go back and reread my previous post, I realize that I overstated the matter, especially when I wrote: "call it superstition or whatever, it still has its sway on the people." That does not apply to any nation especially Germany. However, there are still many superstitious people in the world. There are of course fanatical people and sects throughout the world, Himmler's dabblings, etc. But anyone, anywhere and at any time can become influenced by the the occult, and I still maintain that it is ingrained in any society more so than what is evident on the surface, and I think that it has influenced persons in power at any given time or place. But I did not mean to imply that everyone is like that, especially the entire German nation. Of course I do not mean that. I meant that it is an undercurrent in many societies, and many people don't even realize it.
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Post by Storm on Jan 7, 2014 14:09:34 GMT -5
I,too, did not intend for how I phrased comments to lead to possible misunderstanding.
I think metaphysical is possibly a better term to describe the area of special interest I began my research into, SS alternative propulsion and related projects. There is after all some solid work, and academically verifiable research out there in this area, however there is also much conjecture and speculation. The book about Hitler I originally mentioned has a bad title, admittedly. A sensationalist title. But within it are some interesting concepts that left an impression upon me, especially relating to alleged purposeful training of Hitler in mind control and hypnotic, (for want of better terms), techniques. There are also some quite fascinating theoretical ideas in there relating to large gatherings, such as the Nuremberg rallies, comparing the layouts of these with ancient Egyptian and Roman concepts of sacred geometry, and possible ancient ritual. It certainly isn't all ridiculous nonsense, although I dare say there is possibly some of that in there too, it's been a while since I read it, certainly long before I embarked on my own journey of research into the alleged Nazi reincarnation hypothesis. I think scholarly studies of Hitler invariably miss something, and yes, it is something rather intangible and hard to define. Something more hidden, therefore occult. Hitler was very moved by the writings in the Ostara publications. I am not sure, but these could actually have been Austrian. I certainly think Austria, and perhaps Bavaria to an extent, saw the largest concentration of Blavatsky-type thinkers of the day. People like Karl Haushofer, who influenced, and enjoyed the later protection of Rudolph Hess.
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 9, 2014 7:26:43 GMT -5
Hello guys, I'm glad we have clarified this now. Gumby, I'm glad you agree with me, and it's amazing that your PL memories are consistent with what I wrote about the ordinary people in the Third Reich. Katie lived in Stuttgart, didn't she? Did you know that famous General Rommel was also from the area near Stuttgart? He must have been adored very much by the local public down in those times. He was also a conservative and believing man. In the letters, he and his wife wrote to each other during the war, they both refer to God several times. Of course, it's totally correct that the Christian religion adopted many elements from Paganism. And also folkloristic traditions still contain such elements. As Demi said, it's no wonder they still exist in one form or another. But the original Pagan meaning and purpose was changed to Christian, or is forgotten. There is no Pagan worship/spirituality in it anymore, that the ordinary people are aware of. Therefore I would still argue that the influence of the occult and Paganism on society today is overestimated - especially by those people like modern Pagans, who seek a revival of that. Some of those people say that e.g. decorating a Christmas tree ACTUALLY IS Paganism. But IMO it isn't, because the meaning has changed. Funnily, many people do not know that there is a Christian symbolism in such traditions - maybe therefore they are mistaken And superstition - yes, of course there are many little things and examples like horoscope or talismans. People also like to try and adopt that kind of things from other cultures. But in general people are not ruled by superstitious beliefs in their everyday life, like it was in the Middle-Ages. But sometimes people really clutch at straws, or seek any kind of advice in life. In many cases it is also just about having fun, and the "Maybe it works!" attitude. I agree however, that because of modern media and the overall globalization many more esoteric stuff has become known to the general public in recent decades and therefore the interest in it grows everywhere. Regarding Hitler - yes he was very strongly convinced by his own ideas, one might say possessed by them. Yes, he strongly believed in destiny, his own and that of the Aryan race. In the end he maybe even got mad. As noted, possibly drugs and/or psychological disorders were a factor here. When war was almost lost, Rommel for example, who at first was a great admirer of Hitler, said after a personal meeting that, the Führer has seemingly lost his mind. (A statement that brought Rommel in very serious trouble later on.) However, I would not be surprised when Hitler also clutched at straws when situation had become desperate, and consulted an astrologist or something like that. I just don't buy in the theories that he was possibly possessed by demons, ruled by occultists, or that his decisions and beliefs were based on occultism from the beginning until the end. Gumby, thank you for the link - this is at least a reasonable article based on Hitler's own statements. It sheds some light on Hitler's religious beliefs and background. I did not read all of the quotes yet, but there are many other interesting aspects in them, too, e.g. Hitler's view of democracy. Worth of reading. The article also points out that Hitler and the Nazis did not invent Anti-Semitism, but that this is an old attitude in Christian history. Many people in the world are not aware of that simple fact. Many people also do not know that Hitler did not invent fascism, but that he adopted some ideas and elements from the Italians and Mussolini. It is obvious that people like sensations and mysteries. And it is indeed exciting to examine the "mysteries of the Third Reich". In fact, there once was a documentary series on German TV with that title ;D One can discuss and research this, that's very interesting, without question. But there are many people out there on the Internet or wherever, who then focus only on that stuff, and tend to ignore the overall historical picture - And I personally just don't like that. They claim or believe that mystery x or theory y was the real driving force in Nationalsocialism. This is a kind of mystifying of history. I personally for example, find it fascinating that Hitler was an admirer of ancient European high cultures, i.e. ancient Greece and Rome. That is attested by his own statements. But I would never claim that this was a reason and (hidden) driving force to establish the Third Reich - as a copy of the Roman empire, so to speak It is indeed a very good exercise to always come back down to reason. One should never forget that Nationalsocialism was a POLITICAL movement - an answer to the economical crisis and the political situation and political chaos in Germany and Europe of the time. Many people - also in Germany- forget or have never really learned the details about that. It is also not correct to reduce Nazism to only ideology, holocaust and racial-hatred or Hitler's personality and striving for power. And yes, scientific biographies can never give you a full picture of someone's personality and motivation. They are also often one-sided, miss something or are influenced by the author's personal opinion. But as we say in Germany - you can always just look at someone's head, but never inside of it In this regard - Take care and thank you everybody for the discussion
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Post by Storm on Jan 9, 2014 13:23:07 GMT -5
Sunstar, you make some very good points. Thank you, also, for the exchange. Very interesting, and important, to hear things from a present day German person's perspective.
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Post by Demi on Jan 9, 2014 16:05:38 GMT -5
Personally I think some of those "alternative" things such as astrology can have some truth in it... healers, shamans and fortune tellers has been part of every society at all times. Modern societies find this being retarded and superstitious, but all these indigenous cultures had much more respect for nature and the environment... there has never been as much destruction of nature, cutting of the branch we sit on, as in modern materialistic thinking , so maybe one should think one more time before saying who's retarded.. ! And take and listen what the shaman channels from the nature angels, who probably are to give a good scolding! Sunstar, the link you posted to the song reminds me a lot of Nina Hagen! So 80's... Connected me to a song I used to listen to when I was 10, omg..! I had his whole album... makes me hard to believe. ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu7zrjAL10cAll the best, Demi
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Post by gumby on Jan 9, 2014 23:02:42 GMT -5
I really appreciate your views here Sunstar, and you have helped to shed light on this discussion, and you have also helped me to understand myself better from the standpoint of my PL as Katie. I was not aware that Rommel came from near Stuttgart, and this is sort of an affirmation to me because I have always had a strong admiration for him. I always thought of him a modern Hannibal of Carthage, a brave, brilliant military genius, fighting for glory and honor. I had these feelings for Rommel even before I knew of the PL in Germany, yes I feel a great sense of pride when I think of Rommel, the greatest of all Generals, and I feel sorrow that he was defeated, we all pinned our hope on him, so with his defeat we all felt a sense of desparation. Yes when I was Katie we were also very religious, pragmatic people to the core. I remember the church we attended, I've seen it many times in dreams. The church had a large interior and a rear balcony. I wish that I could find more pictures of the inside of Stuttgart churches, because I am sure that I could quickly identify the exact church if I saw the inside. I think that the church was in the central area of Stuttgart, right off a busy street. We did not give the occult or paganism much consideration, that would have seemed to far out of the ordinary to us, but we may have tended to believe in ghosts. But our faith was important and we would have felt lost without it. However, my involvement in BDM became more important even than church, and then church became rather irrelevant. The Nazi system did tend to shatter the old traditional religious foundations. But despite that, we did not forsake our basic tenants of faith.
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Post by Storm on Jan 10, 2014 3:59:24 GMT -5
Rommel really was an extraordinary General. He was even respected widely in allied circles. Yes, some alternative practitioners/readers are very intuitive. I just had some bad experiences with people who just charge a lot of money for very little of any real value. But, it's all trial and error. I think the Nazi system did try and establish a secular world order to an extent. In time, this may well come about naturally one day, as more people abandon organised religions. It is possible to have a strong personal inner faith and not believe in any one religion. More and more people are experiencing this. Religions have caused and continue to cause many of the problems in this world. Whilst there is some important knowledge in all the major religions, cherry picking the parts that ring true from all of them, as well as from other philosophies, rather than devotedly following just one is probably the way forward for many of those who do have a spirituality or faith, but who do not subscribe totally to any one system. Of course we are not there yet. there are bound to be more issues resulting from extreme fundamental religious views before we move into a more secular world order.
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 11, 2014 14:23:44 GMT -5
I'm happy, I could help you to understand your PL a bit more, Gumby Yes, Rommel was from near Stuttgart. He was Swabian. His son Manfred Rommel became mayor of Stuttgart in the 70's. He was in office for over 20 years, a very popular and highly respected local politician. He died only recently. I believe Rommel was in a way important to my PL, too. From all the celebrities in Third Reich, he was probably the one I truly liked and adored in my PL. I still feel an emotional connection to him today, and I feel deeply sorry about his death. He was forced by Hitler to commit suicide, but the public was told that he had died because of a war injury. I believe, when they announced his death in the end of 1944, I lost even my last bit of hope that the war might eventually be won and that one day things will be fine again. I feel, in my PL Rommel's death was a kind of psychological turning point, that left me in a state of despair and senselessness, that finally led to my own demise But our faith was important and we would have felt lost without it. However, my involvement in BDM became more important even than church, and then church became rather irrelevant. The Nazi system did tend to shatter the old traditional religious foundations. But despite that, we did not forsake our basic tenants of faith. Yes, they tried to cover and control the whole life of the people. Nationalsocialism and its organizations like BDM should work also as a substitute for church and religion. It is explained by some historians that Führer cult evolved eventually into a replacement for the worship of Jesus Christ: Hitler as the new Messiah - while Himmler & Co. tried to establish new Pagan celebrations at the same time. But all of that did not succeed totally, because the ordinary people were too much accustomed to their faith. Yeah, "cherry picking" from different religions, belief systems and philosophies - that's what I myself tend to do That seems to work very well for some people, while for others it is easier to delve deeply into one system and stick to a specific spiritual path, so they can become masters of it (I'm thinking of Buddhistic monks for example). I think, both is possible.
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Post by Sunstar on Jan 13, 2014 5:24:37 GMT -5
Just checked this out: Sunstar, the link you posted to the song reminds me a lot of Nina Hagen! So 80's... Connected me to a song I used to listen to when I was 10, omg..! I had his whole album... makes me hard to believe. ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu7zrjAL10cOMG, Demi - You know that song?! My whole personal Techno/Dance Era started with that one! ;D That was my very first favourite song (was it 1994?)! But I could never understand the second verse, he was singing. I remember, how I was desperately looking for a mixed CD with that particular song on it. The first CD I bought - mostly because of that song. Crazy!!! And you had his whole album?! Great! And Nina Hagen - yes, the godmother of Punk - and craziness! Don't like her music much - but she herself is soo cool and funny ;D An extra-ordinary artist! She believes in very "strange" things, too. Talks of vibrations and ETs all the time ;D Gumby, sorry for spamming your thread with music. We stop this now
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Post by Laurasia on Jan 13, 2014 17:46:59 GMT -5
Hi guys. I know that I haven't been on the forum lately & I do apologize for that. (I'll explain about why in another post.) But I have to say that I was very relieved to see that such a civilized discussion is what added the pages to this thread. (I spent many years working on a forum where if you saw more than one page added to a thread it meant that a nasty fight had broken out. ) And, just to add my own thoughts, I have to agree with Sunstar that attributing the atrocities that happened to anything other than ourselves (or rather our past life selves ) is a form of escapism. Of course there were factors that attributed to everything that happened, but it ultimately came down to society as a whole, through individual actions/inactions. Sincerely, Laurasia
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Post by gumby on Jan 30, 2014 22:13:02 GMT -5
This is part of me and what happened back them. Often it feels as though something is sapping the energy away from me. I really think that much of this comes from my PL experiences in WWII in Germany when I was in the bombings and suffered all that indescribable horror. I can't seem to get it out of my mind, the fires, smoke, screams, panic. It is as though my mind is still in a state of shock at times, often everything seems useless, as though it is all about to come crashing down on me and bury me forever. I find myself hating people for no sane reason, I feel that they have not suffered as I, they just don't see and understand. I lay in the street in Stuttgart and look up at the black sky, and bombs whistling everywhere, and explosions, the street shakes underneath me. Just to lay here in the street is better than to be down in the shelters which have collapsed and filled with smoke. I can die here. I can watch as my city is destroyed. Such futility. More earth shattering booms. Soldiers come and help us out, they lift me up and carry me out of harms way. I choke on the smoke and my eyes sting, and the tears streaming down are of my own devestation. Fires burn everywhere out of control, the heat is like a furnace of hell. The soldiers saved my life. They are good men, brave to go into all that inferno. I realize that I have been to a firey pit and somehow survived, but others are less fortunate. Yes, to be alive yet dead inside, this is a survivers story.
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Post by Demi on Jan 31, 2014 17:36:15 GMT -5
Hi Gumby, it is not very pleasant to remember your past life in such detail. I also had strong bomb fears as a kid especially, and some of the other things you are talking about. One thing you can do is to send love and support to your former Self. Allow yourself to fully experience Katie's feelings surrounded by an "egg" of love, your current self being her guardian angel. Your current self has the ability to send help and support to a former self from the future. Sunstar, agree and I messaged you about the music All the best, Demi
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Post by Laurasia on Feb 1, 2014 15:37:12 GMT -5
Hi Gumby. I can completely relate to how you describe reliving such horrible things so completely. I had an issue with this at work the other day because they were cleaning some items with gasoline & the smell of gas &/or exhaust of any kind automatically sends my mind to an extremely dark & terrible place. But Demi has offered you some great advice as far as sending loving energy to your former self, the other victims, & even the places themselves. It is true that whatever we send out energetically always comes back to us, so sending out such love is never a bad idea. Sincerely, Laurasia
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