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Post by gumby on Apr 8, 2011 9:19:52 GMT -5
Yes, I was far removed from the camps, whereas you were in the commandant's quarters. That would make all the difference in the world. The true horrors of the camps and the way the Jews and others were treated there was for the most part hidden from the general population. It was not something that was publicised and was not generally known until the allied armies discovered the camps and gas chambers and mass graves. Germany does not deserve blanket responsibility for these atrocities, only a fraction of the country knew of the camps, and of that only a fraction of individuals were involved in the implememtation of the murder of the "undesirables". But the guilt in the final analysis belongs with Hitler and his henchmen.
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Post by kapitanprien on Apr 9, 2011 7:57:53 GMT -5
I don't believe the whole 'guilt thing' is cut and dried either. In my case, I had been called a 'criminal in uniform' - despite not having anything to do with the whole Holocaust issue, and despite the fact that nearly all of it happened after I had died! Yet - there are those that want to heap the mess on to my shoulders, even though I wasn't around at the time. Also sadly - there are those that want to call me a 'Nazi' simply because I had belonged to the party for its economic stance (as I couldn't get a friggin' job  ) and this was prior to Hitler being elected. I was also obligated to revoke the membership upon joining the Navy - something I had no problem doing. I would be interested in knowing an approximate figure of those who joined specifically due to the economic reasons - like I did. I have to links that are relevant to this discussion in my U-Boat Site: The 'Nazi' Label: priens-u-boat-site.webs.com/thenazilabel.htm"Prien was not interested in politics; his passion was the sea, not the world of Nazism - there is no evidence to suggest that he embraced its criminal character. He joined the Party, for its social, not military, appeal; at a time of near despair it was giving him confidence, a security he never had."'A Criminal in Uniform?': priens-u-boat-site.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/6540148-a-criminal-in-uniform-So - in my case, I have people trying to heap guilt on me when I refuse to accept it - because I have no reason to feel or be guilty. |
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Post by Storm on Apr 9, 2011 9:14:42 GMT -5
Absolutely, Prien. And this goes back to whole area of guilt. If we are reborn and therefore new again, should even some of those who are implicated in it feel guilty anymore? It seems to me that when it comes to a political movement and a whole nation caught up in it then either we are all a bit guilty or none of us are, (now that we are re-born). Prien, did your U Boat have Jewish hair used in the insulation? I would doubt it if you say you died before it really took off. And all of us who were 'employed' serving our countries were paid with money that may have in part been stolen. So sometimes, as now, we can be implicated in stuff we do not find savoury. I, too, died before the Final Solution actually took part in its later huge capacity. But my job was connected hugely to it, I accept that. And I do feel guilt, although actually I am starting to question why I allow myself to feel such guilt. Since, a: If I was this dude then I died at the time, lost everything and therefore paid the ultimate price back then. b: I have been more useful to my community and society in this life than many people manage to be, in real terms. c: I can't even be 100% certain any of it is true in the first place! Reincarnation is a lovely theory and it makes total sense. The universe is logical and would recycle everything including spirit. But I could just as easily be 'channeliing' this dude from the grave, could I not? There is no real proof. I actually wish there were, because even if I was him then I am not running from it. And if I wasn't at least I have gone so deep into it that I know he was a patsy in a way and has taken an inordinate amount of the blame, because it's easy to blame the dead guy. That has given me a really interesting insight into how the Allies have spun the story. As for guilt? I am going to now stick to feeling guilty for the stuff I KNOW I have done, in the here and now, lol! Like eating that extra cupcake last night, lol. And upsetting a friend by telling her the truth that she did not want to hear.  xx |
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Post by kapitanprien on Apr 9, 2011 9:30:12 GMT -5
Absolutely, Prien. And this goes back to whole area of guilt. If we are reborn and therefore new again, should even some of those who are implicated in it feel guilty anymore? I don't believe so, but my reasoning is different. I said in some post somewhere around here that it is no use beating up oneself over something they didn't know they would get caught up in. Hind sight is always 20-20 as they say and guilt trips take one on a road to nowhere.
Wait I found it - this is what I had said: Well like they say 'hindsight is 20/20' and you got to forgive yourself. Don't beat yourself up over something that - in one sense - you didn't know you would get caught up in. It's not worth it and it doesn't really make much sense to do so. If you understand what I'm saying.It seems to me that when it comes to a political movement and a whole nation caught up in it then either we are all a bit guilty or none of us are, (now that we are re-born). Prien, did your U Boat have Jewish hair used in the insulation? I would doubt it if you say you died before it really took off. And all of us who were 'employed' serving our countries were paid with money that may have in part been stolen. So sometimes, as now, we can be implicated in stuff we do not find savoury. Not to my knowledge. It would have undoubtably freaked the crew out if we found out though.
In my view I was paid with taxpayer money just like any other military member of any other country.
What I mean by having died before it really took off - is that I was gone before the camps were established, etc. I was around during the Kristallnacht, and I had tried to look and see if I could find more about it - as I would have been living in Kiel at the time. Yet - I don't remember EXACTLY where I was when it happened (1938) - I do know that it happened the month before my U-Boat was commissioned, so I may have been out at sea training. Having been out at sea often - I wasn't as exposed to what was going on on land.I, too, died before the Final Solution actually took part in its later huge capacity. But my job was connected hugely to it, I accept that. And I do feel guilt, although actually I am starting to question why I allow myself to feel such guilt. Yes - you're the only other one here, to my knowledge that died early in the wartime era. I personally think that this guilt you're feeling is coming from the post-war 'collective guilt' nonsense that I refuse to be caught up in myself. I won't allow myself to be 'psychically' manipulated by those who want me to feel guilt. I guess the ironic thing is that 'psychic manipulation' is no better than the supposed 'psychic manipulation' that some state happened with Hitler and the people of Germany. One is about guilt the other about hate.Since, a: If I was this dude then I died at the time, lost everything and therefore paid the ultimate price back then. b: I have been more useful to my community and society in this life than many people manage to be, in real terms. c: I can't even be 100% certain any of it is true in the first place! Reincarnation is a lovely theory and it makes total sense. The universe is logical and would recycle everything including spirit. But I could just as easily be 'channeliing' this dude from the grave, could I not? There is no real proof. I actually wish there were, because even if I was him then I am not running from it. And if I wasn't at least I have gone so deep into it that I know he was a patsy in a way and has taken an inordinate amount of the blame, because it's easy to blame the dead guy. That has given me a really interesting insight into how the Allies have spun the story. I think you're starting to see just how I see things only in the way that it applies to your situation. As for guilt? I am going to now stick to feeling guilty for the stuff I KNOW I have done, in the here and now, lol! Like eating that extra cupcake last night, lol. And upsetting a friend by telling her the truth that she did not want to hear. xx *Laughs* |
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Post by gumby on Apr 9, 2011 11:24:56 GMT -5
I do not buy into the blanket guilt mentality, that the entire nation is at fault for these war crimes. That is like saying every person in the United States in the 1850's was responsible for slavery, and that simply is not true, a few people maintained the slave trade in the U.S.. As far as Hitler is concerned, he did not even get the majority of the popular vote, only 37 per cent. He assumed and maintained his position through force, the gestapo and SS. If you look at Gaddafi now in Lybia, he has ruled the country for 40 years with an iron fist, just like Hitler. Now the majority is against him and the revolution to over throw him is the response. I do not blame the German people for following Hitler at a time when they needed strong leadership to pull them out of misery. These things happen in the course of human events. Perhaps the people were weak willed to allow this to happen, but what could they have done once this was set in motion? The people were powerless against Hitler, even Hitler's own generals were powerless against his mania. This is why I feel that the people of Germany were also victims, they suffered more in the long run than any other.
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Post by kapitanprien on Apr 9, 2011 11:34:29 GMT -5
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Post by Storm on Apr 9, 2011 11:40:37 GMT -5
I must admit I do like playing devil's advocate, and I agree that people are not necessarily directly guilty. But certainly implicated.
Why is it that some peoples do rebel and others do not? That is a interesting question.
Yes, Germany suffered terribly, but so did a lot of others. The whole thing was one big, filthy mess. But Gumby is correct that people were weak willed in some ways too. And until people everywhere stop being so weak willed and being prepared to be 'led' instead of to take the reigns themselves, we won't evolve in how we manage our affairs. This is what Big Society, in England, is all about. Trying to make people take responsibility for themselves and their communities. That can only be a good thing long term. And it will devolve power down to a community level if it is doen right.
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Post by Storm on Apr 9, 2011 11:43:26 GMT -5
Oh, and the slave trade started here and in Holland in any case. The US was just left with the aftermath of it.
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Post by kapitanprien on Apr 9, 2011 11:54:41 GMT -5
Re SS3: I don't know why some rebel and others don't. As for me I just wanted a job. I wanted to work. My mother had two other kids and I, being the oldest, wanted to take care of myself - which is why I went to sea (for one thing).
There was something I read on the vintage living forum that stated something like - the immensity of the circumstances leaves one little time or room to really examine things to make what, in hindsight, would be considered a more 'appropriate' decision.
It is so easy to look back, and in the process look down upon, the people back then - all of them - from Hitler all the way down. That's just not something I agree with doing. I don't agree with it because it doesn't help healing on the level of 'unconditional love'.
But that's just me.
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silver
Junior Member
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Post by silver on Apr 9, 2011 12:21:41 GMT -5
This is an interesting debate :3 Could we maybe take it to the Reincarnation Discussion forum, though? We've gone a wee bit off topic |
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Post by Storm on Apr 9, 2011 12:22:18 GMT -5
Yes, Prien, I agree with you on that. I must admit I did feel Gumby made a rather judgemental comment about the guilt factor. Which set me off on my own judgemental track, ha ha! No offence intended anyway. But it is a pet hate of mine how people moan about leaders but don't activley try to participate and change things from within more. That is more from my present lifetime, where we have no excuse, as we do not have despotic leaders in my country! Although Tony Blair did a pretty good job, lol!!!! Let's face it, there are always more sides than one. And in the case of RH, if he really did have Jewish blood he may well have been controlled more readily by the likes of Hitler and Himmler to do their dirty work, as has been suggested by some historians. I do feel the need to fight his corner, even if I am just channelling him, ha ha! |
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Post by Storm on Apr 9, 2011 12:24:02 GMT -5
Yes, Silver. Trouble is, it does kind of lead into other things at times, but I take your point.  |
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silver
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Post by silver on Apr 9, 2011 12:32:24 GMT -5
No, I understand that the debate does split off into different subjects, it's just that this is a place for me to record my memories and discuss Marlene's life :] Wider political debates which involve all of us are best placed in the discussion forum *nod*
I don't think Gumby was being particularly judgmental, however. From the point of view of somebody who knew about the camps, and therefore supported their existence (not least by tolerating them and keeping her mouth shut), I can understand why someone who never knew they existed has little to no guilt in comparison. Katie was busy with family and, well, bombings, and I don't think she could or should be held accountable beyond the basic support/non-resistance of the regime. The guilt that entails is not the personal guilt that affects those of us whose lives were involved to a much greater magnitude. Even if she didn't agree with what Hitler was doing out in the open, protesting would simply have gotten her killed, much like anyone else.
There are those of us who could and did stand up for their convictions, and those of us who through ignorance of the actual reality, did not (those of us who tolerated that reality in full knowledge are a whole 'nother kettle of fish). Is it unfortunate? Yes. But I don't think resting the blame for the secretive genocide of an entire people on those who planned it, who knew about it, who kept it quiet, is a cop-out. I think it's entirely reasonable.
See? This is why it should be in the discussion forum ;P
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Post by kapitanprien on Apr 9, 2011 12:34:03 GMT -5
(We're thread-jacking Silver's thread...  I'll just put in this reply, and then perhaps someone can start a thread in the General Section like Silver said - I guess since we're discussing 'the guilt factor' it could be on something like that? I don't know.)Yes, Prien, I agree with you on that. I must admit I did feel Gumby made a rather judgemental comment about the guilt factor. Which set me off on my own judgemental track, ha ha! No offence intended anyway. But it is a pet hate of mine how people moan about leaders but don't activley try to participate and change things from within more. That is more from my present lifetime, where we have no excuse, as we do not have despotic leaders in my country! Although Tony Blair did a pretty good job, lol!!!! I understand. I tend to think people try to do the best they can with what they have available. I was often away from land, so I was frequently 'out of the loop' with many things in society...let alone my family.
I'm inclined to believe that the citizens do want the best for their country, but once the person is in charge - one can't really 'control' him. Admiral Doenitz said a really good quote regarding the situation...I wish I could find it now. Even here in the U.S. things are getting really 'whacked' with the banning of Happy Meals (!) But there are people who are fed up with such nonsense. Things take time and I do understand the impatience of others - having it myself for my own life though.Let's face it, there are always more sides than one. And in the case of RH, if he really did have Jewish blood he may well have been controlled more readily by the likes of Hitler and Himmler to do their dirty work, as has been suggested by some historians. That's entirely understandable to me. I could view it this way - the Jewish people became a sort of representation of the Jewish blood in himself and the illusion was created that if RH destroyed more Jewish people he himself would then be 'cleansed'. If that makes sense.I do feel the need to fight his corner, even if I am just channelling him, ha ha! I understand.
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Post by Storm on Apr 9, 2011 12:37:33 GMT -5
I agree Silver, but I thought this was also a forum where we were meant to try not to judge eachother so we could heal. I do accept what you say, and I apologise for hijacking your thread, really I do.
It just touched a nerve as I am trying seriously to come to terms with the fact I may have been a monster! That hurts a lot. I cannot believe I could ever be so bad, so either I was the guy and I was also being held to ransom on some level too, like many others in Germany at the time by a manipulative regime, or I am just channelling something. I must do my own research on that.
As I said I am sorry. No offense was intended.
Think maybe it would be best if I leave. xx
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) and this was prior to Hitler being elected. I was also obligated to revoke the membership upon joining the Navy - something I had no problem doing.
xx
I'll just put in this reply, and then perhaps someone can start a thread in the General Section like Silver said - I guess since we're discussing 'the guilt factor' it could be on something like that? I don't know.)