Post by brooklynfan on Aug 6, 2011 1:22:27 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, I was thinking about posting this when Msmir posted their thread on Parallel universes. and that thread sealed the decision on weather to start a topic or not.
Time is a particular obsession of mine. I fix and restore clocks as a hobby ( I can actually see 18 from where im sitting ranging from 25 to 160/170 years old... to demonstrate my particular... obsession) and the concept of time and how time works and its nature is something that I am very fascinated with. Now I take a more naturalistic view of things, and I believe that time is both linear and circular. its not the same as everyone else but it works for me and is something that I have been able to observe, time and time again. A few years back I posted the following on a different forum I am on, which, while a bit dated, still summarizes my thoughts on the subject rather nicely. (ive done some editing because it was part of a large topic on "would you want to go back in time to relive a particular lifetime" and while interesting, it does not directly relate to the matter at hand.)
**Caution, Science Content**
Time and the nature of its passage is something that has been a long term fascination of mine. I’ve done a great deal of study on the subject and have come up with a theory that at least to myself seems valid. Your mileage may vary…
Time in and of itself is not linear, it is cyclical. This concept can bee seen in numerous natural phenomenon, including the cycles of seasons, the cycle of the moon around the earth, the earth around the sun and the believed cycle of the solar system around an undetermined point in space. Even natural events such as rain are considered cycles. Water is evaporated through warmth into the sky where when it reaches a certain altitude and temperature and then it solidifies and congeals into rain, snow or ice and then falls to the ground, eventually turning back into its base of water. This cycle occurs in any occasion where a chemical reaction does not occur to destroy or change on a base level any of the factors. However, even when an external factor is present that changes the baseline chemical composition (take for example fire) it can still be considered a part of a cycle. While that particular factor (in this case wood damaged on a chemical level by fire) may be changed individually on a microcosmic level, on a macrocosmic level it can be used as a part of the greater cycle. For example, lets take the Yellowstone Fire of 1988. For many decades, humans had suppressed any fire which arose in the park (and indeed all parks) because they believed that the fires were damaging to the environment and to human development. Because of these misguided attempts, the natural cycle of the forest was unintentionally broken, and the checks that were controlled by the natural occurrence of fire were not allowed to be done. Therefore, it was found that there was a large occurrence of heavy undergrowth and which stunted the growth of the larger trees and other natural plants which required the large amounts of nutrients in the soil that were being taken by the parasitic smaller plants. In 1988, a number of fires were started outside of the Yellowstone park (9 by humans and 42 by lightning). They quickly grew out of control and ravaged through a large percentage of the park (793,000 acres or 36% of the park… although one must consider that a large percentage of the park is natural springs and geysers which are non flammable and are included in the other 64%). The fire fueled by the unnatural amount of overgrowth was so fierce that the firefighters could do little but try to keep it away from the man made dwellings, in particular the historic Yellowstone lodge, but their efforts barely dented the progress of the fire, which was only finally put out by rain and snow (natural effects) in September.. After the fire, scientists found that the ecosystem was not stunted by the fire, but indeed, it actually was beneficial to the local system, as the ashes and debris returned nutrients to the soil that are necessary for larger growth. Also, there are a number of species of tree (the most notable being the Douglas Fur and the Sequoia) actually require massive amounts of heat for their seeds to open, and for the first time in many years, they had the opportunity to seed and to revitalize the population of ‘giant’ trees, finally continuing the cycle that had been stunted for so many years by human intervention.
This is an occasion where a chemical reaction (the burning of the wood and undergrowth of the trees) destroyed the original object (said undergrowth) but which through its destruction allowed the cycle to continue. Also, it demonstrates the fact that when a cycle is disputed by an external factor (in this example human intervention) it will attempt to reassert that cycle until it is fully restored.
This cycle can also be seen in the concept of reincarnation. As cycles take place in the system in which we live, so do they occur in the cycle of human existence. Just like when a clock reaches 2400 hours and then comes back to 0000, so do humans end one existence and begin another at zero. However, just as every cycle in nature is different (while every cycle of 24 hours can be considered the same on the surface, it is marginally different than the one before… the hours of daylight are slightly different, the earth is in a slightly different position that it was on the day before.) Every human cycle is different. We may find certain trends that we return to time and time again, but we do not relive the same lives. Nothing can be replicated exactly. Close, but not exact (just as in a Fractal, where we find a pattern being replicated endlessly within a single equation, the replications are essentially the same, but they are not identical. There will be tiny minute variations within the copies found within the fractal which make them similar but different. Also, one must note that fractal patterns of similarity only occur within single fractals, and not within fractals borne from other equations). Therefore, time itself isn’t a circle, but indeed is more a spring or a spiral with one pattern stacking up upon the other endlessly, where there are similarities and trends that follow each other but are not exact. Think of a Slinky when its sitting on a desktop. Now imagine that you’re an ant standing on top of the slinky looking down. You can see the coils as they run down, although the top coil (this lifetime) is far easier to see than the others, you can still see what has come before (recollection of past incarnations) but because you are standing on top of the coil, you cannot go back to other coils, because of ‘weight’ of the other coils lying on top of it. So in other words, you can observe it, but you cannot change it.
Also, lets look at it another way. The past is a cycle that has already been laid out and concluded. If someone were to figure out a way to work outside of the established system and to travel back to that time and attempt to change something, the cycle would do its best to reassert itself… perhaps violently. Lets say for example, you figure out a way to go back in time and kill Hitler in an attempt to stop the crimes of the Third Reich. Even with that single factor gone, the other factors in the cycle would work to reassert the pattern until it was back to the way it was before. Hitler may not have become the Fuhrer, but someone else would have. And while events may have been marginally different, the general aspects more than likely would have been the same. You work to stop the fire, and it may work for a few years, but when the cycle does finally reassert itself the conflagration would be worse than if the cycle had simply been allowed to complete itself
**Science content over**
I am interested to hear others thoughts. Do you agree? Disagree? Or does it even matter?
Time is a particular obsession of mine. I fix and restore clocks as a hobby ( I can actually see 18 from where im sitting ranging from 25 to 160/170 years old... to demonstrate my particular... obsession) and the concept of time and how time works and its nature is something that I am very fascinated with. Now I take a more naturalistic view of things, and I believe that time is both linear and circular. its not the same as everyone else but it works for me and is something that I have been able to observe, time and time again. A few years back I posted the following on a different forum I am on, which, while a bit dated, still summarizes my thoughts on the subject rather nicely. (ive done some editing because it was part of a large topic on "would you want to go back in time to relive a particular lifetime" and while interesting, it does not directly relate to the matter at hand.)
**Caution, Science Content**
Time and the nature of its passage is something that has been a long term fascination of mine. I’ve done a great deal of study on the subject and have come up with a theory that at least to myself seems valid. Your mileage may vary…
Time in and of itself is not linear, it is cyclical. This concept can bee seen in numerous natural phenomenon, including the cycles of seasons, the cycle of the moon around the earth, the earth around the sun and the believed cycle of the solar system around an undetermined point in space. Even natural events such as rain are considered cycles. Water is evaporated through warmth into the sky where when it reaches a certain altitude and temperature and then it solidifies and congeals into rain, snow or ice and then falls to the ground, eventually turning back into its base of water. This cycle occurs in any occasion where a chemical reaction does not occur to destroy or change on a base level any of the factors. However, even when an external factor is present that changes the baseline chemical composition (take for example fire) it can still be considered a part of a cycle. While that particular factor (in this case wood damaged on a chemical level by fire) may be changed individually on a microcosmic level, on a macrocosmic level it can be used as a part of the greater cycle. For example, lets take the Yellowstone Fire of 1988. For many decades, humans had suppressed any fire which arose in the park (and indeed all parks) because they believed that the fires were damaging to the environment and to human development. Because of these misguided attempts, the natural cycle of the forest was unintentionally broken, and the checks that were controlled by the natural occurrence of fire were not allowed to be done. Therefore, it was found that there was a large occurrence of heavy undergrowth and which stunted the growth of the larger trees and other natural plants which required the large amounts of nutrients in the soil that were being taken by the parasitic smaller plants. In 1988, a number of fires were started outside of the Yellowstone park (9 by humans and 42 by lightning). They quickly grew out of control and ravaged through a large percentage of the park (793,000 acres or 36% of the park… although one must consider that a large percentage of the park is natural springs and geysers which are non flammable and are included in the other 64%). The fire fueled by the unnatural amount of overgrowth was so fierce that the firefighters could do little but try to keep it away from the man made dwellings, in particular the historic Yellowstone lodge, but their efforts barely dented the progress of the fire, which was only finally put out by rain and snow (natural effects) in September.. After the fire, scientists found that the ecosystem was not stunted by the fire, but indeed, it actually was beneficial to the local system, as the ashes and debris returned nutrients to the soil that are necessary for larger growth. Also, there are a number of species of tree (the most notable being the Douglas Fur and the Sequoia) actually require massive amounts of heat for their seeds to open, and for the first time in many years, they had the opportunity to seed and to revitalize the population of ‘giant’ trees, finally continuing the cycle that had been stunted for so many years by human intervention.
This is an occasion where a chemical reaction (the burning of the wood and undergrowth of the trees) destroyed the original object (said undergrowth) but which through its destruction allowed the cycle to continue. Also, it demonstrates the fact that when a cycle is disputed by an external factor (in this example human intervention) it will attempt to reassert that cycle until it is fully restored.
This cycle can also be seen in the concept of reincarnation. As cycles take place in the system in which we live, so do they occur in the cycle of human existence. Just like when a clock reaches 2400 hours and then comes back to 0000, so do humans end one existence and begin another at zero. However, just as every cycle in nature is different (while every cycle of 24 hours can be considered the same on the surface, it is marginally different than the one before… the hours of daylight are slightly different, the earth is in a slightly different position that it was on the day before.) Every human cycle is different. We may find certain trends that we return to time and time again, but we do not relive the same lives. Nothing can be replicated exactly. Close, but not exact (just as in a Fractal, where we find a pattern being replicated endlessly within a single equation, the replications are essentially the same, but they are not identical. There will be tiny minute variations within the copies found within the fractal which make them similar but different. Also, one must note that fractal patterns of similarity only occur within single fractals, and not within fractals borne from other equations). Therefore, time itself isn’t a circle, but indeed is more a spring or a spiral with one pattern stacking up upon the other endlessly, where there are similarities and trends that follow each other but are not exact. Think of a Slinky when its sitting on a desktop. Now imagine that you’re an ant standing on top of the slinky looking down. You can see the coils as they run down, although the top coil (this lifetime) is far easier to see than the others, you can still see what has come before (recollection of past incarnations) but because you are standing on top of the coil, you cannot go back to other coils, because of ‘weight’ of the other coils lying on top of it. So in other words, you can observe it, but you cannot change it.
Also, lets look at it another way. The past is a cycle that has already been laid out and concluded. If someone were to figure out a way to work outside of the established system and to travel back to that time and attempt to change something, the cycle would do its best to reassert itself… perhaps violently. Lets say for example, you figure out a way to go back in time and kill Hitler in an attempt to stop the crimes of the Third Reich. Even with that single factor gone, the other factors in the cycle would work to reassert the pattern until it was back to the way it was before. Hitler may not have become the Fuhrer, but someone else would have. And while events may have been marginally different, the general aspects more than likely would have been the same. You work to stop the fire, and it may work for a few years, but when the cycle does finally reassert itself the conflagration would be worse than if the cycle had simply been allowed to complete itself
**Science content over**
I am interested to hear others thoughts. Do you agree? Disagree? Or does it even matter?
It's interesting that the Mayans view 2012 as being the end of the Lord of Darkness era, as Hindus believe something similar (tough I do not believe that the ers is supposed to end in 2012 in their understanding) about the cycle that they believe earth to be leaving now...the Kali cycle. (Or something along those lines anyway. Either we just left it or we will be leaving it soon. I'd have to look it up in my books again. LOL!) 
The soul would probably need some rest and relaxation before coming back here and dealing with the chaos..LOL