Re: Jewish members of the SS

[doctorwhat]

SS3 and i didnt want to hijack another thread, so i decided to start a different one.

what do you think about the possibilities of the Nazis allowing Jews or other (according to them) impure races into the SS? especially with their strict racial hygiene policies

my grandmother's older brother (his name was Anton Schenk) was in the SS, he was an Obersturmfuhrer. he was tall (according to my grandma 6'2"-6'3" - she was 5'11" herself), white-blond hair, blue eyes, white skin. he had Aryan features. he looked like the "perfect Germans" on the propaganda posters. but he was Jewish. he was at Sachsenhausen then Birkenau and was executed. his parents were in the camps (his mother, my great grandmother) was the only survivor and later remarried an Italian guy when she came to NYC after the war. my grandmother's (and his) cousins, younger sister, aunts, and uncles were in the camps too.

and i dont know how he was able to get into the SS. i dont know if his mother was Jewish blood, or just married a Jewish man. if his mother wasnt of Jewish blood, then he wouldnt be considered racially Jewish according to the Jews, but then his other family was considered Jewish enough to be thrown into the KZs. i've heard of other "impure" races being in the SS or at least the regular army.

and i read a theory that Mengele had Gypsy blood because he definitely didnt look very German by their standards. i also read somewhere about Heydrich and even Hitler having Jewish blood, or at least not very "pure German" heritage.

i dont think my PL had Jewish blood. i didnt look like "I" did in my reading, but then my great-uncle didnt look like he did either. my grandma sold his uniform, photo, journal, and all his things to a collector, so i dont have a photo of him. i've been trying to look online to see if i can find one (of my great-uncle), but i havent had any luck.

i was just curious if anyone else had any thoughts on this subject. or if it even relates to your past life in any way.

[Storm]

I have just started looking at the book, "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers" by Bryan Mark Rigg, (Universtity of Kansas Press 2002).

It really does seem there is a vast amount of confusion over Mischlinge at all levels in Germany as events build up towards the Final Solution. In fact it states, "Heydrich.......did not know what was to be done about Mischlinge." This is around the time of Wannsee. I cannot read about Wannsee! I cannot even watch that film about it. I am going to have to make myself look more deeply into this stuff.

He also aparantly got in a state about the amount of German Jews challenging their classification during the build up to the ratification of the Nuremberg Laws, according to the book.

I really must read this book in entirety.

www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

Could you pm/post as many details of your Great Uncle? I would really like to see if I can find something about him. What a shame all his remaining stuff was sold! I wonder if you were a friend/colleague of his?

[doctorwhat]

my grandma hated talking about it, and was pretty annoyed that i wanted to know EVERYTHING about him and when we lived there (i was 10 when we lived on the land next to her house), i was always over there asking questions about him, asking to look at his uniform and everything.

from what my grandma said, he was in his late 20s when he was executed. she told me she thinks he was around 28 or 29. his name was Anton Schenk. he (according to her) was around 6'2"-6'3" and had white-blond hair in the photo. my grandma, her mom and dad had blue eyes, so i'm guessing his were. they were light in the photo. so maybe green, blue, maybe even a light hazel? but most likely blue. he was white. my grandma said when they were young, they'd celebrate Hanukkah and the other holidays, and she USED to be semi-Kosher.

he was an Obersturmfuhrer in the SS. he LOOKED like this guy --> i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/AcoolVW/german%20personalities/paulsenghas.jpg and this guy --> i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/franz-repper/img129.jpg had a baby together. but that's not him, of course. i've spent hours online looking at obscure Nazi sites and forums trying to see if i can find a photo of him? but these guys look like him as closely as i can find.

the name was scratched out on the back of the photo, but the last name looked like Schenk, so that's what i've been calling him. it was some sort of form of that. it doesnt help that it looked like chicken scratch too. i know his name was Anton, because she had mentioned when i was younger that she had an older brother named Anton. she refuses to tell me what their name was before she came to the US. she had told me once that their name was "too German" and they changed it to Murray. but on the back of the photo, it looks like "Schenk." i just tried putting "Obersturmfuhrer" in google and that's how i found the guy who looks like him but isnt (on the plus side, i think i found "myself" lol. i think i shouldve just typed in "Obersturmfuhrer" awhile back). i knew his rank because of his uniform. my grandma was annoyed that i said what he was just by looking at his uniform insignias.

they were from just outside Alsace-Lorraine (ceded to Germany in 1871 & i think it was taken over by France after WW2 i cant remember), and their family heritage is actually Alsatian, which i guess is technically French now, but they spoke German.

he started in Sachsenhausen and then was transferred to Auschwitz-Birkenau. he was executed in 1945 according to her. she refused to translate his journal for me, and of course i didnt know what it said since i didnt speak German. but i'm pretty sure it was interesting. and i begged her like crazy to give me all his stuff. but i think my interest in it creeped her out a bit too much.

the only thing i DO have of his was his pocket watch that was from the 1800s passed down thru family. and that was because i "borrowed" it and accidentally on purpose never gave it back. i can take a photo of it and post a link tonight if you want.

but that's all i really know about him. i dont know what he did in the camps. she refused to tell me. she refused to tell me really anything about him. the only reason she told me some things was because i pestered her enough. she hated her brother, understandably. but i never really knew why she kept his stuff. she had an antique shop (actual antiques from the early 1900s and before, not like a "junk shop), so maybe she thought it'd be valuable? she had his ring too, which i TRIED to take, but she found it in my room and then hid it from me. she hated my obsession and fascination. i really wanted his journal so i could get it translated, but couldnt get my hands on it.

it made me mad that she sold everything. i tried to get her to donate it to the Holocaust Museum, or if not the main one, she's in GA, i think they have 1 in Atlanta she couldve donated it to.

i'm gonna have to get that book too. and now the subject of Mischlinge Nazis has my interest, so i'm gonna have to look more into it. definitely.

[doctorwhat]

I wonder if there is a list/s of SS personnel executed at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1945?

i've been looking. i might end up calling my uncle tonight. he's the one who's working on my mom's side of family history. see if he found anything on him. i was wondering if he thought joining the SS would spare his family? i know some Mischlinge joined the SS and the army/navy because it might spare their families. but i dunno.

i'll definitely take a photo of his watch today and post a link tonite.

[Storm]

Yes, that is possible. That must have been so hard for him and your family if he had been unable to help spare then, oh gosh!

Do let me know if your uncle has anything on him. I will also see what I can find on my research hunts about SS personnel executed at Auschwitz-Birkenau. I have a lot of sorrow and feelings of guilt for the SS caught up in all this stuff too. In this life I am painfully aware of how the top down approach often results in the worst policies being carried out by people who often just find themselves over a barrel and unable to challenge the chain of command.

I do wonder if you were a friend to your Great Uncle. Serioulsy. Like maybe you two formed a very good friendship and part of the need to find out his story is connected to that, and maybe in finding out more about him you will find out about your own past life? That would be so cool! I am looking forward to your next post when you speak to your Uncle, good luck!! x

[doctorwhat]

i took pics of the pocket watch. when you click on the link, you can click on the picture to make it bigger. they're pretty big photos.

s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m607/katyachildress/lj2/?action=view¤t=z1.jpg

s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m607/katyachildress/lj2/?action=view¤t=z2.jpg

my uncle Eddie told me a little about him. and the only way he found out about it was thru the watch. apparently it came with a letter and he had it translated. which led him to other family members mentioned in the letter. it's in his safety deposit box.

his mother's maiden name was Schenk. she wasnt Jewish by birth, which could be why he wasnt really considered 100% Jewish and allowed into the SS. he died (executed by gun. apparently it wasnt "official" execution, he was just killed because of what he was) in 1945 (i thought it was '46 or '47). he was 28 years old when he died. he was 6'1", blond hair, green eyes. he had given the watch to my grandmother before he joined the SS, because he had no kids. his grandmother's name was Katerina Schenk Grafin-Weisbrod (my uncle said it couldve been Weishod, he couldnt read the document very well. it looked like it was Weisbr----). they were from Hamburg (her father was Jewish, her mother was Catholic – her father converted to Catholicism before marrying her mother). Katerina Schenk Grafin-Weisbrod was given the watch above on her 18th birthday in 1843.

she married Anton vonStauf, from Elsass-Lothringen (aka Alsace-Lorraine) when both were visiting America (NYC) - that's where they met. they lived in Alsace-Lorraine when they got married. they were Catholic. she was then Katerina Schenk Grafin vonStauf-Weisbrod.

she had a daughter, Katie (Katerina) Schenk Grafin vonStauf-Weisbrod, born in Hamburg. she married Adam Hoffmann (a Jew) in Alsace-Lorraine, and converted from Catholicism to Judaism. he was Ashkenazi Jew. they had a daughter Kathryna Hoffmann. he said that on the letter, it's listed as Kathryna Schenk Grafin-Hoffmann (they were adamant about keeping the Schenk & Grafin in the names).

Kathryna Schenk Grafin-Hoffmann was the mother of my grandmother (Kathryn), Anton, and their sister Elsie.

my grandmother's brother, Anton, changed his name when he was 18 from Anton Friedrich Schenk Graf-Hoffmann to Anton Schenk. Adam Hoffmann was an uncle (more like cousin who's old enough to be an uncle) of Marlene Hoffmann, who was Alexander von Stauffenberg's wife; Alexander (Schenk Graf) von Stauffenberg was the twin of Berthold (Schenk Graf) von Stauffenberg, both older brothers of Claus (Schenk Graf) von Stauffenberg, who led the 7/20/44 plot against Hitler.

anyway, Anton joined the SS in 1940, and was stationed in Sachsenhausen where he was trained? not sure trained to do what, my uncle couldnt find out (so far) what it meant. i may try to do some research on what it means to be "trained" at Sachsenhausen? but he was transferred to Chelmno (aka Kulmhof - didnt know this. Grandma said he went from Sachsenhausen to Auschwitz, she never mentioned Chelmno) in 1942 for a couple months before being sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau in March 1943 and was there til 1945 when he died. in Birkenau he worked at Crematorium II, supervising. i’m not sure what/who he supervised, i’m guessing sonderkommandos? maybe kapos? my uncle didn’t say.

he doesnt have his photo, either. he had tried to get it from my grandmother and didnt know she had sold it. he knew she sold the uniform, just not the photo or the journal.

his mother, father, my grandma, and their sister, some cousins, aunts and uncles ended up in concentration camps. Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, Sachsenhausen, and Dachau. i didnt know about Dachau, until my uncle informed me. he had heard from my grandma that 2 of her cousins were "Mengele Twins" and he's trying to find out if it was true. the only ones who survived were my grandma, her mother (she remarried when they came to the US, and her last name became Spino), Elsie (she married a Spino, too), and a few cousins. when my great-grandma, grandma, and her sister came to the US, they changed their name to Murray because Hoffmann was "too German."

they were Jewish, but not really by maternal bloodline, just thru paternal & conversion. this is the only way i can see that they let him into the SS? he would be i guess Mischling 1st degree? having a parent who's a Jew (father). but i still have no idea how he got into the SS, unless it was his overwhelming Nordic appearance.

that's all i know (and all my uncle knows - so far) about Anton Schenk (aka Anton Friedrich Schenk Graf Hoffmann).

[Storm]

Drwhat, that is such an interesting story and I will reply to you properly later as I have to go out now. But that is so interesting!

[Laurasia]

Hi guys.

While this topic is very interesting I just want everyone to be careful of using terms such as "racially" or "genetically" Jewish. Please remember that Judaism is a religion & anyone of any cultural/ethnic background could be Jewish, regardless of what us Nazis used to think.

I don't want people getting the wrong idea about this discussion simply because any of us are careless with the way that we word things.

Sincerely,
Laurasia

[Storm]

Definitley, Laurasia.

But my Jewish friend has been trying to help me prove if I have what she describes as Jewish blood. She says one can get a special DNA test for it. So it is a kind of weird topic. She believes that it is genetic and that, say, if my mum's mum's mum is Jewish, then I am by Liberal Jewish standards, but not by Orthodox. So I am unclear on whether it is reasonable and not racist to acknowledge Judaism as a race as wll as a religion or not. That is an interesting issue.

but I think we need to always be clear that we are not disrespecting Judaism.

I think you raise an interesting point that needs clarification.

xx

[Storm]

www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Judaism is a race in law for anti-discrimination, but considere not a race at the same time. I am confused. Why does my friend seem to think I can somehow 'prove' my what she calls Jewish blood? This is a lady who is on a religious education committee, as an official Jewish delegate, so she is a reliable lady.

I think the name of this thread could do with being changed, however. As to what it should be changed to, I really do not know.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated on this as Laurasia is quite correct that we simply cannot give the wrong impression. We are both very interested in this and a good book has been written on the subject of Jewish Nazis.

Maybe this thread should be renamed after the book, 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'?

What do others think?

[Storm]

www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/jewish-dna.html

[Laurasia]

Regardless of what some people may say regarding Judaism being "genetic" (even if they are Jewish themselves, as I do realize that Jewish tradition states that "Jewishness" is passed via the mother) I don't care for such terms being used on this particular forum simply because we are dealing, rather exclusively, with a group that incorrectly targeted people for death using such methods. It's a matter of tact in my eyes.

That being the case I also have to agree with you about the title of the thread being "Nazi Impurities"...it just doesn't quite sit right. So I've changed it to "Re: Jewish members of the SS".

Sincerely,
Laurasia

[Storm]

Thank you for changing the thread name Laurasia! x

[Storm]

Drwhat,

your family history is extremely interesting and thank goodness you managed to keep the watch. What a lovely watch! I have a lovely old Victirian gold pocket watch, it still keeps great time.

If your Great Uncle was at Chelmno he probably knew Laurasia, (Hans Bothmann). That is so interesting. What an awful job working at one of the Crematoria, Oh God! And it is so tragic that so many of your family died.

If I recall correctly under the Nuremberg laws one was considered a Jew if one had two Jewish Grandparents. I do not know for 100% sure.

Check out Laurasia's post on the Reincarnation Proof Positive thread. I think you will be very interested in that!!! x

[doctorwhat]

Apr 20, 2011 14:22:09 GMT -5 Laurasia said:

Regardless of what some people may say regarding Judaism being "genetic" (even if they are Jewish themselves, as I do realize that Jewish tradition states that "Jewishness" is passed via the mother) I don't care for such terms being used on this particular forum simply because we are dealing, rather exclusively, with a group that incorrectly targeted people for death using such methods. It's a matter of tact in my eyes.

That being the case I also have to agree with you about the title of the thread being "Nazi Impurities"...it just doesn't quite sit right. So I've changed it to "Re: Jewish members of the SS".

Sincerely,
Laurasia

i'm sorry i wasnt even thinking about that. i agree w/ the name change too.