(this is from my U-Boat Site)
priens-u-boat-site.webs.com/thenazilabel.htmThis has been a big 'bone of contention' for me, and so I thought I'd set the record straight on this. It has been said by people and authors alike that Prien was a 'fanatical Nazi' (American correspondent Shirer) as well as having been disliked by his crew (Terence Robertson).
The following is a collection of quotes from books and a discussion I had with a member of uboat.net's forum regarding the matter.
Note: "Professor Curry showed that many modern myths use a false belief that Nazis called themselves "Nazis." The myths cause widespread ignorance of the etymology of the word "Nazi." Party members called themselves "National Socialists," not "Nazis.""
"Unlike Prien, Schepke was a National Socialist, and his account was sometimes stridently polemical." - Michael Hadley, 'Count Not the Dead'
From: Enemy Submarine by Wolfgang Frank:
"I was happy to find Prien in a talkative mood. We sat chatting for a long time over our coffee that evening.
"'What will you do,' I asked him, 'when you retire from active service?'
"He considered the question thoughtfully. Then he gave me his answer pat. 'I'd like best to keep my command for a quarter of the year. For three months I'd like to lecture in one of the submarine schools and instruct officer cadets for another three. I think that is one of the most important jobs for a naval officer. And then for the other three months I'd want to train crews. Unfortunately all that is only wishful thinking. For the time being I am stuck where I am, and I could not wish for anything better.'
"'But later on I would definitely like to become an instructor in the naval officer's reserve, for I have an idea that of all professions an officer is the highest educational influence for the nation. He is not merely a purveyor of knowledge; he must be far more than that. He has to put the coping-stone on the whole work of education begun by the Hitler Youth movement and the Labor Service. He must give the young man his final polish, inculcate and inspire him with the finest principles and ideals, and be a living example of good character and conduct. That is why an officer must lead a patently exemplary life because it will be under his leadership, under his eye and in the last resort following his example that his men will be expected to give their lives for their country.'"
'Teddy' Suhren served under Prien's command for a short time and the two got along well . Therefore, Prien is hardly the 'ardent Nazi' some make him out to be.
"Tough, able and passionate about his trade, Prien had a harsh personality, able to whip any man found lacking to ribbons with his blistering wit. Teddy was not among those to earn Prien's disapproval however, and he thrived." - U-Boat War Patrol
From: "The Royal Oak Disaster":
"Prien and Endrass, and the other officers, Oberleutnant Hans Wessels, and Oberleutnant zur See Amelung von Varendorff, and the chief navigator, Obersteuermann Wilhelm Spahr, who later, like Endrass, would command his own U-boat, meshed well together. Prien was pleasant, witty, popular with officers and men, the skipper obviously of a 'happy ship'. Because he hailed from the Merchant Marine and held an A-6 commission as Kapitan auf grosser Fahrt (literally 'Capitan on Big Voyage'), the crew felt great confidence in him, admired him personally.
"'He was always cheerful,' said Spahr, 'and since most of the crew consisted of young people, his cheerfulness carried over. During training in the Baltic, North Sea, Atlantic, and Mediterranean, and during wartime operations, morale always was high. Prien demanded a lot of himself and expected the same spirit of readiness from every member of the crew, which was forged into a unit in the Donitz-Prien spirit.'"
"Prien was not interested in politics; his passion was the sea, not the world of Nazism - there is no evidence to suggest that he embraced its criminal character. He joined the Party, for its social, not military, appeal; at a time of near despair it was giving him confidence, a security he never had."
"As his first post after graduation Prien was made watch-keeping officer aboard U-26, a Type I boat commanded by Leutnant zur See Werner Hartmann, who years later would remember his first meeting with the jaunty officer.
"'In the canteen of the Torpedo School a youngster was standing on one of the tables. He was lecturing the sailors in the craziest pidgin-German on the customs, morality and immorality of Asiatics, Africans and Americans. And in the small hours he led us in singing the rousing choruses of the grandest sea shanties in the world, the old sailors' songs known everywhere from Hamburg to Hong Kong, from Santiago to Genoa. This astounding young man with the twinkling eye knew verses to them by the hundred. 'Who is he?' I asked. 'His name is Prien,' I was told. We sat down together behind a wall of tobacco smoke and grog fumes, chewing the rag and spinning endless yarns. The outcome was that Prien just had to be my Number One. And we managed to wrangle it.'" *
*Wolfgang Frank - Enemy Submarine
"He could hardly wait to get back to sea, one day astonishing his crewmates by remarking, typical of him: 'I get more fun out of a really good convoy exercise than out of any leave.'"
"Gunther Prien was in the mess, feeling the comfort of the ship, letting it warm him, draw him close together with his comrades, U-16's Wellner, and Kapitanleutnant Sobe, chief of the 7th U-boat flotilla, when in strode Kapitan zur See (Captain) Hans Georg von Friedeburg, a tall, well-groomed officer, Chief of the U-boat Arms' Organisation Department, later to succeed Donitz as Commander-in-Chief of the U-boat Arm, just before the end of the war to become Commander-in-Chief of the Kriegsmarine and the man who in May 1945 would sign the surrender document before Field Marshal Montgomery."
*Friedeburg had also committed suicide. He was the one who threw into the rubbish bin a report on the activities of 'Teddy' Suhren (which he annotated as "complete rubbish"). It was reported that Suhren was drinking with a black man in Hamburg and associating with a Jewish woman. See: U-Boat War Patrol
"Donitz was looking at Prien, and no one, he felt, was better suited for such a mission: Prien was aggressive, circumspect, possessed good nerves, was an excellent sailor - a 'clear thinker, not given to complex pondering,' as Oehrn had told him when Donitz asked for his opinion the week before, and Donitz had agreed, seeing in Prien 'all the personal qualities and the professional ability required.'"
Donitz: "'Prien was all that a man should be, a great personality, full of zest and energy and the joy of life, wholly dedicated to his service and an example to all who served under him. In war, notwithstanding his sudden leap to fame and popularity after the Scapa Flow exploit, he remained a simple, frank and courageous fighting man, intent only on doing his job and adding to his exploits. I held him in great affectioin and esteem."
Wolfgang Frank's recollection of Donitz after the loss of U 47: [he] "went about his work with grim and purposeful dourness which we who knew him recognized as a sign of the depths of his emotion. He never gave expression to his feelings; he kept his grief to himself. But we, the officers of his staff who could not ourselves bear to speak of what we felt, knew without words what this loss meant to him."
Donitz' 'Order of the Day': "Gunther Prien, the hero of Scapa Flow, has made his last patrol. We submariners bow our heads with pride and sorrow, in tribute to him and his men. Even though the vast ocean hides him, Prien still stands in our midst. No U-boat will go to sea against the West but he will sail with her, his spirit will bear her company. No blow against England will be struck by us but his aggressive spirit will guide our hand. Ebullient with youthful vigour and reckless courage, he is an eternal pattern for all U-boatmen. We have lost him and recovered him; he has become for us the symbol of our hard and remorseless will to vanquish England. The fight will continue in his spirit."
"On a pilgrimage to Orkney, from Offenbach near Frankfurt, they had crossed from Scrabster on the St. Ola and come to the spot where lay the wreck of the ship their father had sunk. They were the daughters of Gunther Prien, 'Geremy' Dagmar Prien, aged twenty-three, and Birgit, two years older, and they had made the long journey from Germany to Scapa Flow, they said, to see the scene of their father's daring.
"'My sister and I are profoundly moved to be here and to re-live the emotions our father must have felt on that dark October night when he accomplished his feat,' Geremy told Gerald Meyer, editor of The Orcadian, Orkney's newspaper.
"Her father could just as easily have died at Scapa Flow, she said, and 'I have never felt so near to my father as now. We cannot remember him but he is very much alive in our hearts. It is depressing to think that where father performed such a great deed so many people had to die. Scapa Flow looks much bigger than we visualized.'"
There were also seven crewmen that stayed with U 47 since the Scapa Flow raid:
Heinrich Bierman (Maschinist Obergerfreiter)
Gustav Boehm (Stabsmaschinist)
Gerhard Hotzer (Masch. Obergfr.)
Hans Sammann (Bootsmann)
Karl Steinhagen (Funkgefreiter)
Peter Thewes (Ober. Mech. Gfr.)
Gustav Werder (Masch. Maat)
So to say that he was not liked by his crew is hardly credible.
In the book "Wolf" by Jordan Vause, the author states that Horst Bredow, of the U-Boat Archive in Germany, had said in an interview that Prien had not said, "I am an officer and not a film star." Rather, he said it was Donitz who made the remark in reminding Prien that he is not a film star.
Again, this doesn't add up considering Ingeborg's memories of Prien and even Wolfgang Frank's memories of Prien. As Frank had mentioned in his book, Enemy Submarine, that he wondered how someone of that type of character, dealt with all the admiration that was sent his way. Therefore it appears that some aren't telling the truth.
From The Royal Oak Disaster:
"Prien enjoyed the adulation, yet he wasn't swept off his feet by it; he wasn't a braggart. He told his friend Frank, 'I am an officer, not a film star.' And, 'The moment I see somebody at the far end of a tram or in a restaurant nudging his neighbor and gaping like a fish I know that he has just whispered reverently: 'Prien!' If this sort of thing goes on much longer I shall learn to lipread. At all events there is one word I can't be mistaken about.'"*
*From Enemy Submarine - in full: "On my way I could not help wondering how Prien had reacted to the hero-worship of which he was the object. I discovered later that he had found it difficult at first to accustom himself to the limelight. It certainly was not easy for a man of his character to accept continual publicity and adulation, to get used to be followed and stared at with every step he took ashore. But Prien soon began to see the humorous side of it. It amused him. He once said with a happy grin when he was asked what he felt about it: 'The moment I see somebody...'
Excerpts from "Wolfpack: The Story of the U-Boat"
"At least one of the most highly respected and chivalrous U-Boat aces was an early party member and even held rank in the SS but was obliged to give up his membership of both organisations when joining the navy in 1934."
"Interestingly, though himself and admirer of Hitler, Donitz ensured that so-called 'National Leadership Officers' (similar to Soviet 'political commissars') were never allowed to serve on U-Boats, despite assertions to the contrary by some writers."
On Werner Henke, commander of U 124:
"He stormed into the headquarters of the local Gauleiter, and then the Gestapo headquarters itself, branding them as thugs and gangsters. Despite an earlier incident when he struck an SS officer, Henke received no more than a stern rebuke from Donitz. It is hard to imagine any ordinary German citizen being quite so fortunate."
"U-Boat commanders, though proud and patriotic Germans, were quite notorious in their disrespect for the Nazi regime. On one famous occasion, U-Boat ace Teddy Suhren of U 564 was approaching port to tie up alongside after a long war cruise when he leaned over the edge of the conning tower and yelled 'Are the Nazis still in charge?' When the reply 'Yes' came back, Suhren immediately put his engines into reverse and backed away from the quayside, much to the amusement of those watching."
"Typically, U-Boat men loved jazz (which was much frowned upon in the Third Reich), French women, and thoroughly good beer - in quantity. They hated the military police, ignored political issues and generally treated the enemy, whom Nazi propaganda sought to have them hate, with respect and chivalry. Like most elites, they worked very hard, and many of them liked to play hard, too."
From: "U-Boat Commanders - Nazi's or Not" - uboat.net
"...even defining what it meant to be a “Nazi” is a slippery slope. Party membership isn’t definitive as many joined just to keep their jobs or because they believed in a strong government etc. and didn’t realize that the despicable aspects of the party would actually be carried out. The crimes of the “Nazis” escalated over time and the worst crimes were kept secret from most Germans. Indeed general knowledge the worst crimes didn’t occur until after the war. Others embraced even the worst aspects of the party but never joined the party."
"Note that being member or the NSDAP doesn't mean automatically that one is a devoted nazi, Prien was member before 1933, but mostly because of the economical circumstances of the time and not due to racial or political beliefs."
It must also be noted that one is obliged to have their membership in the NSDAP revoked before joining - as noted with the aforementioned case.
Discussion
I had decided to contact a member of uboat.net's wonderful forum on this, and his conclusions were much like my own.
Below is the emailed reply when I had asked him where on Earth people get the idea of Prien being an ardent Nazi from. My reply is in italics:
Hi Prien,
Yeah, the forum is the wrong place for a discussion of this topic. The whole topic is a slippery slope in my opinion. A good part of the answer to your question revolves as you suspected around the definition of what’s a Nazi. It means different things to different folks.
Hello,
Apparently - my understanding is the same as yours below. But unfortunately, I've noticed (mainly with Americans) that they only look at the 'racial policies' and not the economic things (well either they can't or don't want to). I tend to view the whole label too in a more modern perspective - we have those registered as Republican, but they may be 'extreme' or what some call RINO, same goes with those who are Democrat. In fact, I'm registered as Democrat, but have a strong Liberterian outlook.
When I think of the Nazis I am thinking about the Holocaust, genocide, the treatment of the mentally disabled and those with birth defects, the brutal treatment of the people in occupied countries, the theory of German racial superiority (leading to the concept of “sub human" races) and the poisoning of the minds of German children with these concepts. These are the things that make the Nazis evil in my mind and anyone who believes these things are right is a Nazi by my definition, regardless of whether or not they ever joined the Nazi Party. However there was more to National Socialism than just this. The throwing off of the hated Treaty of Versailles, putting an end to the crippling reparations demanded by the Treaty, putting hungry people back to work, fighting against the Communists, fostering national pride, overcoming the serious economic problems facing Germany at the time, reintroducing conscription for the military, kicking the sh*t out of France (there are plenty of people today that would love to see France get the sh*t kicked out of it again) and in general raising the status of Germany from a second rate state to an equal are all things we would have applauded if it had been us doing it under those circumstances. The hatred of Jews in Germany wasn’t all that different from the hatred many whites in America felt for blacks back then. The difference is that the KKK didn’t gain control of our government. There were also “restricted” private clubs and other organizations here in America at that time that barred both Jews and blacks from membership so we don’t really have the moral high ground here either. A lot of people made statements about hating blacks and wanting to see them all killed or sent back to Africa back then. Everybody heard them but nobody took them seriously. Thank God the KKK never did gain control of our government or we may well have seen a black Holocaust right here in the U.S.A. Nobody in Germany believed what Hitler was saying he was going to do at the time either.
Ah - see, they never mention the thing regarding the racism against blacks. I wonder why? They are so eager to point the finger at WWII German reenactors like me, shouting me down (calling me a revisionist and Nazi apologist), but neglect to see how rife racism was in the US. I knew of the segregation, but didn't realize that it also extended to Jewish people too. How can anyone believe politicians (then or now) with what they will do (or won't do), and they sometimes say they will do something but then turn around and do the exact opposite.
But if you believed in your government and supported it you were called a Nazi without being able to clarify the parts you believed in and the parts you didn’t.
I guess what some in this country would call being a 'socialist' now - if applied to the current situation here in the US.
There is no way to tell what the U-boat men thought or knew at the time. However there is overwhelming proof of what they did and I know of no case where any U-boat man did anything that in my mind would qualify him as a Nazi as it relates to fighting the U-boat War. For example in the hundreds of cases I have researched I have never found a report that a U-boat man ever asked if anyone in a lifeboat was a Jew. The U-boat War was fought honorably by the U-boat men. Whatever they thought or believed in at the time, they acted honorably with the exception of the Eck case and I believe he thought he was doing the right thing even though he was committing a war crime. It is a tragedy of war that young men are put in life or death situations under tremendous pressure and without the necessary information to make a good decision yet they are forced to make such a decision. It is the worst nightmare of anyone who has ever been in charge of anyone else on a battlefield.
Neither have I. Even after reading about Schepke's anti-Semetic remarks, I have YET to come across any form of racism against allied sailors if they were shipwrecked. Also, theLacconia incident is probably another good case of the whole U-Boat crew helping people out of the water. From my understanding there were people of different nationalities crewing merchant ships (Indians, Chinese, and perhaps even black folks) - but never ever read of any 'racial killings' of shipwrecked survivors.
As to Prien I don’t know why some have characterized him that way. My guess is that he was a somewhat strict officer and like officers of all countries couldn’t allow his men to say or do anything that didn’t show respect for the chain of command or his government. His nationalism was simply described as Nazism. The fact that he had been a party member probably accounts for the rest of it. We must also remember that in the beginning Hitler was viewed as Germany’s savior. Not for the things he did later but for the things he did then and the things he promised to do later that he never did. He was loved and admired by the masses. Perhaps Prien was one of his early admirers. He actually met Hitler personally when Hitler decorated him.
I've read he was strict to a point, but not so strict that his crew hated him, because Wolfgang Frank's book states that U 47 'was a happy ship' - and he's the only one I care to rely on, since he went out with U 47 on it's next to last patrol. I've read he was patriotic, so I can see where you're coming from there. Perhaps - all I know is that it wasn't really Hitler who put him in power so to speak but an 'act of God' - when the Niobe sank and the Navy opened up to the HSO's to join. I don't rely at all on the ghostwritten book by Weymar that came out during the war (and later translated) as I have been researching Prien's life since 2004 and found out that much of that stuff is incorrect (for example the steamer Pfalzburg and the collision with the San Francisco).
The bottom line though is that I have no idea what he believed or what he knew. I do know what he did and I don’t find anything in it that troubles me. Additionally I would not characterize him as a Nazi without actual proof he believed in the evil side of National Socialism. That would not be fair to his family.
That's exactly how I feel, but unfortunately I have received otherwise. Do some not want to research, or do they not care...do they not want to see, because apparently I've become such an anathema on this forum that I've been deemed by one of the really irrational members a revisionist and Nazi apologist because of my views - which are more objective.
German POWs soon found out that nationalism (simply supporting your country) could get them classified as Nazis by the allies and many served many years behind barbed wire after the war ended because of this incorrect determination. Anyone who didn’t believe that the Holocaust happened was immediately classified as an ardent Nazi. Because we now know all of the evils perpetrated by the Nazis we assume the German people knew about it as it was happening – they didn’t. The real atrocities occurred out of sight of the German people (especially those in the navy as they were at sea so much of the time) and were a state secret. Anyone that knew about them could have been killed for talking about it. It was so outrageous that it was easy for the Nazis to convince the German people (living in a police state at the time) that the rumors of atrocities were simply allied propaganda. As the war progressed and we relentlessly bombed their cities, it became even easier for the German people to believe.
That's what so many can't seem to get - that the Germans didn't know...but whenever I bring that up, I get people saying that they knew, etc. etc. and didn't do anything about it. Are they talking about things like the Kristallnacht? I can never know because they are so irrational and I can't have any type of discussion with them - they are so firmly entrenched in their beliefs and even presenting the German side...well, they don't like me.
Lastly there is “literary license”. Many writers seem to think it is all right to “spice up” their work by inserting accusations like that into their stuff regardless of what it does to the families involved. After all they are all about selling their book and a little sensationalism helps with that. Once the book is out it makes no difference to them if it is true or not. It is a theme that permeated all our WWII reporting. It was the Nazi army that did that, not the German army, it was a Nazi U-boat, not a German U-boat etc. We have to demonize out enemy during a time of war. How else do you convince an ordinary 18 year-old kid to hack an enemy soldier to death with an entrenching tool? Unfortunately because of the horrendous crimes committed by the Nazis, it has stayed that way since the war.
Much like 'sex sells' as I understand it...and yes, I would say it really has stayed that way since the war (with a special help from Hollywood). One of the other members in the forum had privately messaged me and (he's from England) stated that it is usually the Americans, and also blames Hollywood. I agreed, because the vast majority of books I read are by British authors and I've never had this sort of problem with British people!
Hope this helps. I run into this question all the time and am still banging my head against a wall trying to sort it all out. The one thing I keep coming back to is that no matter what they thought, what they did was honorable as far as the way they conducted the war was concerned.
It helps tons...immensely. I don't know anyone else I could talk with at length about it who lives in the US and can write from a US perspective (as I live in the US - North East Coast). I keep coming to the same conclusion as well.
All this applies to Doenitz too. He was also a Party member and he made a number of statements supporting the Nazis and a few denigrating the Jews. He was also in more of a position to know what was actually going on behind those closed doors than any of his men. Still, when I look at what he actually did I can find nothing regarding the conduct of the U-boat war that would qualify him as a Nazi in my mind. In his position he was expected to make some of the statements he made (this also goes for Wolfgang Luth another U-boat man characterized as a Nazi by some). Whether he made them because it was expected of him or whether he believed what he was saying is only for him to know. He had to have Hitler’s approval and support in order to do his job and when Hitler ordered him to shoot survivors he refused and he got away with it.
Same here - found same and felt so too. Especially notable is his standing up to Hitler, and he's the only one I know of that did that despite his perosnal political beliefs.
In the end, what is in somebody’s mind is his business and only his business. If we must judge him at all then we must judge him only by what he did.
That's how I feel. From all I've read, even those that had anti-Semetic views (Schepke and Luth) they acted with honor despite. They never let those views interfere with their actions at sea at all.
_______________________________________________
In light of all that it is apparent that the Allies can no longer claim 'moral high ground' upon two obvious facts:
1 - There was racial hatred in the US towards blacks and Jews as well. And one does not have to dig far to find any..."Paris Liberation Whites Only" (and that's just one of the many stories). Also - in regards to the KKK, the book 'Flappers' by Zeitz has a chapter that is about the KKK's resurgence in the 1920's and the things they did.
2 - It is blatantly obvious that a person in one area, cannot physically see what is going on somewhere else (one must also keep in mind there was no i-net or camera phones back then either - so a little common sense goes a long way in this). Therefore, due to this more than obvious fact of life, there is no way that the Germans could have known about all the horrors of the Holocaust and to say so in hindsight is actually making a false claim - aside from being naieve.
That said - I had emailed this member of the uboat.net forum comments posted by members in the vintage living forum linked above, and the man replied with reading a book entitled: 'The Nazi: Coming of Age in Hitler's Germany and the Voyage of the U859' by Arthur Baduzus. He states that the book addresses the topic and provides interesting reading in the process.
I have not yet read this book - but will do so when I get the chance.
I would like to start by putting in this very well thought out quote by someone (full of common sense - and straight to the point):
"Most peoples' choices in wartime are limited to what's immediately before them; the massive scale of events doesn't give most the time, information, or incentive to do otherwise. The "right side/wrong side" component can only really be applied in retrospect."
That is so true, and that is one of my main points regarding this.
What really bothers me, because I can't do the mental gymnastics to be able to come up with such a conclusion, is how people manage to lump Prien in with those who willingly wanted to kill people (those who set up the concentration/death camps and staffed them, etc.).
Simply put - how on Earth do you compare someone who joined the Nazi party before 1933 (and left the party upon having joined the Navy), because they were out of work and only wanted a job in which they could support themselves, with people who were willingly ready to go about with the destruction of the Jewish people and others deemed 'undesirable'? Tell me - how do you come to the conclusion that the two belong together?
To those who attempt to do so - shame on you. How would you feel if you were unemployed and wanted more than unemployment compensation to survive on? That's what Prien undoubtably felt - and joining the party during that year more than likely helped him get into the volunteer work group at Vogtsburg. In all my research, I haven't been able to even find the exact date he joined, just sometime in 1932 - so this leaves at most a year, to a few months to even be a member of the Nazi party. And even that pales in comparison with this ridiculous notion of putting someone who wanted to survive - make ends meet - with people who were willing to engage in the systematic destruction of groups of people.
I have continued my discussion - although it's going into other parts which are not really relevant to this subject, so I will only post what is relevant from the conversation:
There was however some discrimination against Jews in some social circles and some private clubs were closed to them. For example, most towns of any size had a country club that was “members only”. Most country clubs had a swimming pool, tennis courts, a golf course and a clubhouse where meals were served. They were always quite expensive to join and my family and the families of most (but not all) of my friends couldn’t afford the membership. I found out much later that blacks, Jews, and Mexicans were never invited to join and if they submitted an application they were just told that new members weren’t being accepted at the moment. It was mostly done somewhat covertly though a black or Mexican trying to join a country club would probably be told to his face that they weren’t allowed, but a Jew would simply “not make it” – wrong time to apply, no memberships available, didn’t get enough votes etc. but in reality they were never even considered). There were no discrimination laws back then and a private club could legally refuse membership to anyone. In my case, since my dad was a merchant seaman (the stereotype merchant seaman was a drunk that couldn’t get work ashore at the time – not true but that’s how it was) my family may well have been considered socially unacceptable too had we tried to join. Since we were white we would have simply not made it i.e. we would have been lied to but not told to our face that we weren’t acceptable to them. Also this type of discrimination against Jews happened in Great Britain as well so America wasn’t the only place it happened. We are probably just more willing to talk about it and it may have been more prevalent here though I don’t know that for sure.
Segregation for blacks was much different in some parts of America (but not all of America by any means). It was open and in many case legal. When I was a kid there were public drinking fountains marked white and colored and any black drinking from a white one risked taking a beating from any white that happened to take exception to it. We called all blacks niggers almost all of the time when talking amongst ourselves back then. The polite term was “colored” and it was understood that colored was the term the blacks wanted us to use. Nobody would have though to call them blacks back then. Blacks had to ride in the back of the bus. Blacks couldn’t eat in a white restaurant, they had to go to the back door and get a carry out order. There were separate schools, churches, movie theaters, restaurants and whites rarely shopped in black owned shops or did business with black owned businesses. The pay for blacks & whites doing the same job was frequently higher for whites. Even the blood supply was kept separate. No white person would want a transfusion from a black donor. Intermarriage was illegal in many states (but not all) and few white families wanted their daughter to even date a black man much less marry one. Our military was segregated too and black units almost always had white officers. Few white owned companies would hire a black into a management position but Jews weren’t discriminated at all in this regard. Blacks and whites lived in different neighborhoods too and heaven help the white who sold his house to a black (thus lowering property values for the whole white neighborhood). Again none of this applied to Jews.
The American Merchant Marine was a shining exception to the rule though. It wasn’t segregated. Blacks & whites from all countries served on the same ship together (when my dad’s ship was torpedoed about one third of the crew were naturalized American citizens born outside the U.S. & two were German), took their meals together, and shared their living quarters. Toward the end of the war there were even a couple of merchant ships that had black captains and a white crew. My dad was a merchant seaman all of his life and he taught me from childhood that there was no difference between people – any people. We were all the same and the color of our skin or our religion was completely unimportant. Most of the Jews that were my dad’s friends were merchant seamen too. I actually learned about the Holocaust from the wife of one of my dad’s friends. We had them over for dinner many times and we dined with them on numerous occasions too. They had a daughter a bit younger than me and we played together. One day I noticed that Rachel (the wife) had a number tattooed on her arm and I asked her why. Women just didn’t have tattoos back then and hers seemed really out of place to me. Well, to make along story short, she told me. She and Manny were Hungarian Jews but were some of the first Hungarian Jews to be rounded up and both had been in concentration camps during the war. That is the day I became interested in WWII. I didn’t even know at the time that my dad had been torpedoed during the war. The day I found that out was the day I became interested in the U-boat War.
That's one thing I've noticed. I too believe in what your dad believes in. My friend who sometimes posts on the uboat.net forum has a family friend who was in the Merchant Marine in the later part of the war. He served on a Liberty Ship, the name I don't remember and when my friend (she portrays the DRK nurse at events) told him about me, he said of the U-Boat crews: "They had it so hard." There was nothing but sympathy from him - there was no Nazi b*st*rd, Nazi criminal nonsense whatsoever.
Two other things I recall - my great uncle was a bombardier in a B 17 (named Lynn Marie) and when I heard him talk of his experiences, he said he felt bad for dropping the bombs - but what do you do when your country calls you up? He said he knew that people would be killed, etc. Again, nothing but sympathy from him - no Nazi criminals, etc.
At one WWII event I was at - back in '07, there was a Canadian RAF Spitfire pilot there. I went up to ask when he fought and after he got done talking with me, noticed my uniform and asked, "Submarines?" I replied, "Yes, U-Boats." at that - he reached out to me and shook my hand - I mean...the guy reached out -to me-, and looked me in the eye. We shook hands and it was very emotional for me. I could have cried really. Again - no bloodthirst anti-German, Nazi b*st*rd, etc. nonsense. Just the total opposite.
Figuring out why things were that way back then is quite difficult for those that didn’t live through it to understand and the same is true for the treatment of Jews in Germany. First, the blacks had no forum with which to complain. They couldn’t get an article published in a white owned newspaper or magazine if it was complaining about their treatment or the unfairness of the laws. No radio station would broadcast that sort of thing for fear of loosing all of its advertisers. Whites wouldn’t go to a movie about it so no producer would produce such a movie. Lastly there was no TV back then. Blacks were screwed and they had no way to complain and nobody wanted to hear it anyway. That is the way it was and nobody questioned it, at least not out loud. This also applies directly to the Jews in Germany during the war only their plight was much greater.
That's another thing I think people overlook - there were no forums or mediums in which they could complain. Obviously no YouTube, camera phones, i-net...so one is left with photos, telephone, and newsprint, along with cinema films. From some things I've read TV was in its infancy and hardly anyone really had one - so it was easier to really control what was going out amongst the masses. I read the book, The Great Naval Game which is really interesting in that respect.
I didn’t question it when I was a kid either. As far as I knew it had been that way forever and nobody ever complained about it. It was almost as if that is the way it was supposed to be even though my dad had taught me different. The way minorities were treated was simply not discussed publically by us or our parents as far as we knew. Blacks lived in their own part of town and we lived in ours and we almost never had any contact with each other. Out of sight, out of mind. Gee that’s how it was in Germany after the Jews had been rounded up and removed too. Out of sight, out of mind – not an issue. German soldiers and sailors encountered the same thing. No Jews in the military or on a military base and no complaints from them either. Nothing (positive) about them in the paper or on the radio either. They either became the enemy or they became a “non issue”, especially in the Navy where you were likely to spend a good deal of time at sea.
Oh for me I was always questioning things (course this gets me into trouble...LoL) but I do 'buck the status quo' and people don't like it. I've noticed that with doing my WWII German impression, and even within the German reenacting community, there is a division (there are those of us who feel a sort of social responsibility - as our uniform has the swastika on, and there are those who don't). I agree with the out of sight out of mind thing - if they're not around, how does one know? As far as the person knows - it doesn't exist if only because they have a 'limited view' of what's going on around them at any given time (but I've realized that some people think that the Germans were able to see all the way into Poland even if they're miles out to sea!). I've skimmed through the book though, Hitler's Jewish Soldiers, and found that there were some full Jews in the military, but it wasn't known to the other soldiers (along with quarter and half Jewish people). The acceptance process was really very arbitrary for them. I had only skimmed through the book as I was only interested in the Kriegsmarine - and in particular the U-Boat arm. Prien spent so much of his time out at sea that - there was no real way to keep a decent track of what was going on on land. Two Cape Horn ships - that's months per voyage per ship, as far as the San Francisco was concerned - a poster I came across said at least a month voyage from Europe to the Pacific Coast. I haven't been able to get enough information on the HAPAG ship 'Olivia' - so I do not know. And that's just the Handelsmarine...join the Navy, and there was the light cruiser Konigsberg, followed by service on the U 26 and later U 47. It's a wonder with regards to having a strong connection with one's family, let alone what is going on with one's social environment. But again - I don't think people understand that.
We need to understand that making a racist comment and doing something about it are two entirely different things. Participating in or even condoning real mistreatment because of race is Nazism. Again all this is a slippery slope. One step in the wrong direction and you are in trouble.
I think that's where people get mixed up - that just because they said something, that automatically makes them 'this' or 'that' - but fail to look at how the person acted. It boggles my mind because there's the saying 'talk is cheap' - so, why even count that? Isn't there another saying that actions mean more than words - or something to that extent?
Lüth just might be a good example. He is considered a Nazi mostly because of the speech he made about how to manage a U-boat. I do know he hated the Communists and so did the Nazis but that doesn’t make him a Nazi in my mind. However it may have made him a Nazi in his mind. He apparently accepted the crap that the Jews were Germany’s enemy but again he never acted on it in battle. I know of nothing improper he did that would qualify him as a Nazi as far as the U-boat War is concerned.
My friend read about him. I didn't read too much on him as my focus was Prien, but I do know what you're talking about. I think many Germans hated the Communists (and look at where the US found itself with Communism later in the 20th century). I don't believe that one hating Communism makes one a Nazi in the least - as that would make most of us Nazis now in the US that do not like Communism (at least that is how I see it). I think he was too focused on keeping his crew busy on the long patrols than to even worry about killing any Jewish sailor that he may come across - as I've never seen anything either regarding such actions by him in combat.
SS Clan Macarthur
The wounded were taken aboard U-181 and given medical treatment & some sugar & water before being returned to the lifeboats. They were also given the course & distance to land. Additionally Lüth promised the survivors he would notify the authorities at Mauritius of their plight and after moving a safe distance away he did just that.
When the first lifeboat pulled alongside U-181 Engel the First Officer greeted them with “Good morning gentlemen. I must apologize for sinking your ship but, unfortunately, it is the fortunes of war.” Then using the same pleasant tone he asked the usual questions, to which one of the men in the lifeboat replied by calling him a “cheeky b*st*rd”. They helped the men in the lifeboat anyway.
MV East Indian
Water and the course to Capetown. Medical supplies were also offered.
These just aren’t the actions of a Nazi in my opinion.
Agreed. I've read numerous accounts of Prien helping sailors - nothing against Jewish people or any ethnic group...so I cannot in any way view Prien as some 'ardent Nazi'.
As a former U.S. Marine I can tell you that just having strict officers wouldn’t necessarily make their men unhappy. Nobody generally likes to work for someone who goes by the book when the circumstances call for another approach though so being too strict can cause problems. You don’t have to like your officers to have a happy ship but you do have to respect and trust them. Prien was probably both trusted and respected by his men. Whether or not they actually liked him probably made no difference to him. More than a slight personal relationship with the men you command is both frowned upon in the military and a problem when you have to discipline them or send them into life-threatening situations.
True - I would agree with you. Much like the USMC motto of 'Improvise-Adapt-Overcome' (which is one of my favorite mottos by the way). That's one thing I've read in Jordan Vause's book 'Wolf' that, if I remember right, it was Oerhn who said that Prien wasn't likeable. I think it was more of a case of trust and respect than a total liking. I agree again with regards to the issue of personal relationship - being too emotionally involved isn't good.
Well all Germans certainly knew Jews were being mistreated. That was done in front of them. Few knew the degree to which they were being mistreated though, especially the navy because they spent so much time at sea and away from any Jews. The worst atrocities occurred behind closed doors or in far away places. Many heard rumors but they also heard that it was only allied propaganda too. Who knew what was true. Again you have to take this on a case by case basis. What did he think he knew, what did he actually know and when did he know it? There is also what could he do about it and what did he do about it? Remember Germany was a police state at the time and your family was fair game if the Nazis decided to punish you.
I agree that many didn't know the exact degree in which they were being mistreated. And I'm sure the Jewish people were afraid to even open up and ask their neighbor for help because who knows what their neighbor believed about them, plus the added fear of the State cracking down on their own family in retaliation for helping them. Almost a 'damned if you do - damned if you don't (though in hindsight)' sort of situation. As for those in the Navy - I often talk with my friend about this saying that, I can't relate to any of these other things the other German reenactors talk about because it's a world unto itself (the U-Boat reenacting) - a totally different outlook, different way of life, etc.
End Discussion.
In my closing...
There are apparently two meanings behind the word 'Nazi' - there is the pre-war meaning, and the post-war meaning. This is actually mentioned in the book Another Place, Another Time by Hirschfeld (he was an LI).
The meaning I go with is the post-war meaning, which, ironically, is historically accurate in retrospect. This is evident in my first post on this subject, and this also seems to be one of the points that cause conflict between me and others.
Finally - I'd like to put in this clip of the Das Boot movie to emphasize (if I haven't already done so ad nauseam) the point that the obvious concern of the crew is the immediate environment. The periscope does not increase the visual field all the way to Berlin, and inside the Chancellery. The crew is 'insulated' from what is going on with Hitler's inner circle - they are not only stationed on the coast (at first places like Kiel, then later places like Lorient, Brest, St. Nazaire) but additionally when they are out to sea away from all of the 'goings on' on land.
If all Germans were Nazis back then, how come there were political dissidents from Germany in the concentration camps?
Remember Niemoller's famous quote...?
(I suppose it is also superfluous at this point to mention the July 1944 Bomb Plot...)
And, yes, I have been on the receiving end of being called Adolph Hitler by disgruntled members of a forum that I work on. LOL! 
memories of the word come from when I was on the receiving end of some really nasty posts on a vintage living forum - complete with the label 'criminal in uniform' and that in essence I had 'known everything' about the Holocaust. The poster also threw up pictures of the camps and atrocities - but the thing is, I was dead after all that happened...so how is anyone going to blame me for stuff that happened long after I died?